Title Changed, Molly The Labrador's Thread.

[4leggedvariety]

I know I will get flamed for saying this, I will have given Molly much more than a time out. YOU DO NOT BITE PEOPLE NO MATTER WHAT SIZE THEY ARE. FULL STOP.

From what you said, it could well be that Molly was saying to your daughter, 'This is my ball and you reck off'.

I think Molly is a very clever girl, very sharp, very perceptive and knows who she can push around. It is very disappointing to hear this news since you are doing so well with her.

I urge you to seek professional help (may be K9 Force) to honestly evaluate whether she is the right temperament for your family, especially for your daughter. not that Molly has a bad temperament. In very experienced hands she will be a great dog. If adults around are not perceptive or knowledgeable enough to read the dog to prevent potential disasters, it will all end in heartache.

I say this with no disrespect to you or hubby as we all have to start & learn from somewhere. I screwed up my first dog, also a female lab very similar nature to Molly, as I did not possess the ability to read and understand that kind of temperament. That's not to say you have to rehome her, but at least seek help and truly ask yourself all the questions. Your daughter's safety IS more important than anything else and you do not want to or is it fair to leave her with lasting fear of dogs.

[littlelabrador]

I'm not giving up on her. I think she is a boisterous strong willed little thing, who needs training. Unfortunately I do not think we can afford K9 at this stage. I still need to find one of those water bottles, will have a look today. She still tries to nip my husband in the evenings, although not like it was a few weeks back, so we need to get on top of it.

I agree she has to learn to not bite anyone, no matter the size, totally agree.

Daughter is ok, shes not scared of her at all, in fact as soon as she got up this morning she wanted to cuddle her, so im not worried in that regard. I asked her what she thought of Molly biting her and she said 'its ok, shes just a baby', so she knows Molly has to learn not to.

To be honest, i think Hubby is still the main problem ! Molly really doesnt want to listen to him, and i know he needs to show his authority etc with her. He does try. She's doing ok with me, i've got her sit, stay and come, under control with her, plus the waiting for her food. When i'm using food rewards that is. Shes less inclined to do it if i have no food on me. Puppy preschool starts up again this weekend.

[Joan of Arc]

Keep the dog and send the husband off for training

Sorry I know its not very funny but sometimes ...

It is NEVER ok for a dog to bite, but if your daughter is small ( remeind me of her size and age) then Molly is just trying to flex her muscles and elevate herself up teh ladder. Expecialy if she sees the ball as her possession.

Now I am no training expert but I do believe that when dogs and kids are together its takes a lot of supervision. First thing to teach both of them is 'who owns what' dont let Molly play with the daughter's toys and vice versa.

Molly is old enough to go to full on obedience training not puppy preschool where you can get good quality advice form people trained to help you.

If you need to locate the nearest club contact DOGSNSW and they can put you in touch with an obedience club. This will also give Molly something to do, keep her strong willed little (big) brain busy.

Good luck

[littlelabrador]

Husband does need the training !! thats half the problem, i realise that.

Daughter just turned 5 last week, shes about 113cm tall.

I'm sure Molly is trying to get up that ladder ! Shes been trying to 'nip' a lot today, following daughter around and opening her mouth moving towards her legs or pants a fair bit. I've been telling her off and giving her time outs. What else should i do ?

Puppy preschool is because we cant get into anything else. I rang the local obedience club but they said that (at 12 wks) she was too young for the current group, (shes 14wks now), and in December/January they have a break and we can join the next group in February. Molly will be almost 6 months old then

They are always supervised when together, NEVER left alone. Molly basically lives in our kitchen/dining room, which is gated off from the rest of the house (because that part has carpet) with metal baby gates. Whenever i leave that room, i take my daughter with me. Molly often follows her outside, so of course, i have to go out too.

Today i actually tried to get my daughter to do the training too, i gave her the food and told her to get molly to sit, stay, come, etc. I dont think her voice is quite loud enough to do it, but Molly knew what was going on, looked at me intermittently, but did do it. I think this might help, for her to learn that she has to obey my daughter too. Of course i was standing right beside daughter, she wasnt doing it alone at her age.

[littlelabrador]

Got that water spray bottle happening. Molly does not like it, and looks very shocked when she gets sprayed. It stops her in her tracks, so will keep going with that in regard to nipping and see what happens.

[chloebear]

I recently had incident with my rescue puppy, jumping on my two year old, knocking him over and then continuing to jump on him until OH pulled him off he got gravel rash to forehead and side of face, plus puppy was mouthing constantly on him. What I have started to do is when we are having dinner, the puppy sits outside (our table near door) and watches the family eat first and then the puppy is feed. I have also had to take a lot more of a leader role to the puppy so she has a lot more respect for me and then in turn is forced to respect my son more. When we are outside if the kids are running around playing I make her stay with me. My children including the two year old take turns throwing the ball for her but the ball will not be thrown until she is sitting nicely for the kids.

With my previous dog, we where told at puppy preschool to use the spray bottle but didn't work to well for us, the dog loved water and thought of it more as a treat.

Just some different idea's for you, but trust me I have my fair share of problems with my puppy we are only starting to make some progress now. When she first knocked my son over I was horrified and very worried and got a lot of really good advice from DOL Erny was very helpful to me. When ever my children are in the yard with my puppy I always keep her under my control as I don't want a repeat of my son getting hurt. If I can't be in the immediate area to supervise than I separate puppy and children to be on the safe side.

[Alderhaus]

You need professional help with this dog otherwise you will end up rehoming her. She sounds like a handful that needs proper management. Consider getting get in a dog behaviourist to teach you how to manage her. Also let the dog breeder know of the problems you are having with her. Greg and Nina I believe? Let them know immediately that you are struggling with the pup.

Don't think that because a dog is a certain breed means that they can't show aggressive behaviours. She is a dog. BUT don't blame her and label her aggressive and dump her. The problem actually lies with you. I don't think all of what she is doing is aggression but you really need to get on top of it NOW. The running in circles and biting is excitement I would think. This pup has no respect for you or your husband and that is what you need to turn around.

Ditch puppy preschool - it's usually run by vet nurses who have very little dog behaviour experience. You need to have your dog at a proper obedience school. They aren't expensive if you find the right kind (not a private one). If you let us know where you live I am sure someone can come up with

[Alderhaus]

You need professional help with this dog otherwise you will end up rehoming her. She sounds like a handful that needs proper management. Consider getting get in a dog behaviourist to teach you how to manage her. Also let the dog breeder know of the problems you are having with her. Greg and Nina I believe? Let them know immediately that you are struggling with the pup.

Don't think that because a dog is a certain breed means that they can't show aggressive behaviours. She is a dog. BUT don't blame her and label her aggressive and dump her. The problem actually lies with you. I don't think all of what she is doing is aggression but you really need to get on top of it NOW. The running in circles and biting is excitement I would think. This pup has no respect for you or your husband and that is what you need to turn around.

Ditch puppy preschool - it's usually run by vet nurses who have very little dog behaviour experience. You need to have your dog at a proper obedience school. They aren't expensive if you find the right kind (not a private one). If you let us know where you live I am sure someone can come up with

[Alderhaus]

Hi Littlelab

I am a bit surprised as I know the breed and this is not normal character. However, the most valuable post so far on this list is that of Blacklab, whereby no matter what breed, they are all individuals. I have a divese background, that of a vet nurse, all breeds trainer, and qualified German Shepherd Trainer and Canine Good Citizen Trainer. I have read later in this list that the dog has bitten a child??? If I read that correctly???. I will post a few comments here but will spcifically invite you to phone me urgently regarding the political position of your dog in the house.

People are all too willing to view dogs as they view themselves, and unfortunately that leads to difficulties. I agree with Blacklab in that Puppy Class deals with very basic issues, and if your dog exhibits anything outside the norm there will be a rare perosn who can fix the situation at the point where it needs to be dealt with. This is not to disrespect vet nurses, I am one by trade, but there is limited information available and they have their hands full with what they deal with on a daily basis.

It seems you have a problem at the moment with boundaries and who is boss. That is a very easy situation to deal with once you know what you are doing. My suggestion to you - Find a breed dedicated group, you must also let your breeder know what is going on - assertive behaviour is not something to contine with in such a fashion in such a breed..... If there is no breed dedicated group in cooee I would STRONGLY recommend you find a German Shpeherd group close by, speak to them and explain the situation. This is a breed that is used to dealing with assertive dogs and the trainers will be omre than happy to help you. We are used to dealing with this.

Trust me - this is NOT a situation that you want to get out of control. If you cannot find someone in close range please feel free to call me and I will discuss with you some basic changes to make within the household (who eats first - you or the dog??? - who enters the house first after a walk - you or the dog???) and we can regain some control. Email me for my phone number.

Cheers

Ally

[Alderhaus]

Sheree:

I guarantee if you follow what I tell you - you will have a well behaved dog.

That's a pretty tall order considering you've never seen the pup Sheree. No qualified experienced trainer I know would make it, particularly without having observed the dog and its owner interact. Internet diagnosis and modification of dog behaviour is fraught with uncertainty and can be downright dangerous at times. There are far too many variables involved.

Littlelab, I second Blacklabs suggestion that you get a professionally qualified and accredited behaviouralist out to see your pup. Teething problems with settling a puppy into a family and establishing boundaries of acceptable behaviour are not unusual and with such an intelligent, active breed quite normal.

It would be the rare puppy buyer who hasn't had those "oh my god what have we done" moments about dog ownership and early intervention by someone who can see you and the pup interact can set you on the path to a well mannered, happy dog (and a happy owner)

I have not seen this pup but the mouthing, barking and behaving completely psycho sound like perfectly normal puppy behaviour. You need ways to occupy that growing mind and body and right now you are the best playmates your pup has. You need to show her what play is acceptable and what play isn't. Gundogs are mouthy babies and the first thing you need to teach is that NO CONTACT between her teeth and any human is acceptable. Do a search here on "mouthing" and you'll find lots of suggestions for dealing with it. At her age, many gundog puppies literally run at you with their mouths open to latch on. You need a consistent, effective deterrance strategy.

As for the growling over food. The technical term for it is 'resource guarding' and, if mishandled, it can turn into a real issue. Constant mucking about with food can increase some dogs levels of anxiety about it and actually worsen the problem.

The crate suggestion is a good one. This is about giving the pup a safe 'den' in your home AND providing a method of ensuring your dog does not have unsupervised interactions with your child while you are occupied elsewhere. How you transport her in the car is a side issue. I'd strongly recommend you get one and leave it set up permanently somewhere.

Until you've sought a consult with a professional, I'd be feeding her in there undisturbed. Put her in, ask her to sit at the back, place the food in and release him to eat (this will have to be trained). Then leave her alone to eat his dinner, release her when she's done and remove the bowl.

Great family dogs are made, Littlelab, not born. Some professional advice and the implementation of a program of consistent training will set you on the path. I consider an ongoing program of obedience training mandatory for gundogs until they reach maturity at around two.

Incidentally, no pup of this age should be doing much onlead walking IMO. It's too hard on growing bones.

And to answer your question? Yes, labs can be aggressive. No breed can or cannot be aggressive. It's a combination of genes, experiences and environment that determine temperament.

Edited: Molly is a "she"

[Alderhaus]

My apologies, another useful post.. resource guarding is exactly what you are dealing with here. A dog that does not want to "play" is a dog that you will need profesional advice with...

Good luck.

cheers

Ally

[littlelabrador]

Thanks for offering your help, but if you'd read through all the posts, you'd have realised that this post has been going for almost a month now, and things have changed a lot in that time. I dont know if there's a way to change the title of the post now, because i certainly would no longer think of Molly as aggressive. Just sometimes boisterous.

We have no problems around food now. We used a technique suggested by someone here, which worked really well, and we continue to use it. Molly will not eat her food unless we give her the signal to do so, i can walk out of the room and come back and she will still be sitting there waiting for me to tell her to eat. She has learnt to 'sit', 'stay' and 'come' but still hasn't got 'drop' yet.

The water spray bottle is working well as well, in regard to jumping and nipping. All in all, she is becoming more controlled and somewhat calmer. Last night when we sat down to watch tv, she just layed down and went to sleep, so things are definitely on the up. As for last weekend's bite, i dont believe it will happen again. And yes, she is always supervised when my daughter is with her. If you could see the two of them together you would realise there is already a strong bond there.

Molly will be going to obedience classes, but they dont start up again until early february.

[poodlefan]

Hi Littlelab!

I was hoping you'd post an update. I'm glad things are going well.

Edited November 24, 2007 by poodlefan

[Erny]

I dont know if there's a way to change the title of the post now, because i certainly would no longer think of Molly as aggressive. Just sometimes boisterous.

Although many of us are familiar with your thread by its given title, if you want to go back and change it all you need to do is return to your original post and click on full edit. You will then be able to change the title and sub-title if you wish.

I'm glad also to hear of your progress and the improvements attained.

Well done.

Erny

[littlelabrador]

thanks, i will do that now. Don't want poor Molly to be known as something she probably isnt.

[chloebear]

I am very happy to hear all is going well.

[littlelabrador]

Today my 4yr old nephew and 18month old neice came to visit. So in all, 3 kids 5 and under running around the backyard. Molly was EXCELLENT !! I was so pleased with her. The little one ran around, pretty hard to stop her when shes on a mission, and Molly sort of scampered after her, but a good couple metres behind at all times, and did not jump up once. A few times i had to say 'molly, no' when she looked like she was going to jump, and she would just sit when i said that. She didnt try to nip any of the kids, i was really proud of her. She seemed calmer around them than she was the last time they visited, about 2 wks ago. Hope it continues.

[chloebear]

Today my 4yr old nephew and 18month old neice came to visit. So in all, 3 kids 5 and under running around the backyard. Molly was EXCELLENT !! I was so pleased with her. The little one ran around, pretty hard to stop her when shes on a mission, and Molly sort of scampered after her, but a good couple metres behind at all times, and did not jump up once. A few times i had to say 'molly, no' when she looked like she was going to jump, and she would just sit when i said that. She didnt try to nip any of the kids, i was really proud of her. She seemed calmer around them than she was the last time they visited, about 2 wks ago. Hope it continues.

Sounds like Molly was a real star, well done littlelrador

[Seeker]

Thats great Littlelab sounds like you've made some grat progress with her!

[Joan of Arc]

That's the girl Molly!!!! :rolleyes:

See? patience, understanding, boundaries and no labels of "aggressive dog".

Molly has passed a big test today and so have you because now you have the key to her control.