Title Changed, Molly The Labrador's Thread.

[littlelabrador]

Is it even possible ??

We have an 11wk old yellow lab puppy, Molly, who i have written about when we first got her. We've been so busy with her i havent had time to get back to this site !

Molly has had a lot of problems with loose bowel motions, and frequency, up to ten times a day. After trial and error, antibiotics etc, the vet has put her on a prescription dry food last week and finally it has helped, shes only going 2 or 3 times a day now and its much firmer.

But, we are having a lot of problems with jumping, biting, barking etc, mostly with my husband at night. She is aggressive about her food. We are going to puppy preschool, and the lady there has said to pat her while she's eating and to put our hands in the food etc, well we certainly cant get our hands in the food, she tries to bite us, but if patted once or twice she will tolerate the pat, any more she startes growling. We arent sure if this is just because the first few weeks she wasn't absorbing enough and has just been really hungry. The second week we had her she didnt gain much weight, so obviously wasnt getting enough nutrition. Weight gain has picked up with the new food (1.2kg last week).

When hubby gets home in the evening, he pays attention to her, has a little ball play with her, and then we eat dinner. She jumps up while we are eating, barks etc. Dont know if she just wants more attention or what. We've tried giving her time out when she does this, in the laundry and she will calm down, but it takes a few time outs !

After dinner, and daughter is in bed, we usually relax in front of the tv. This is when Molly goes 'psycho' as my husband calls it. He will be sitting on the lounge, and she will run around in circles, very hyper, then jump up at him, bark at him, try to bite him wherever she can get hold, feet, legs etc. We have been using a 'sit' command with a downward hand signal, and when he puts his hand out to say and do that command she goes nuts barking at him. Last night she nipped a bit too hard and drew blood. I don't have anywhere near as much of a problem during the day. She will obey the sit command for me.

She does seem like an active puppy, not a quiet little thing, but we have a 5yr old and if she is going to be a biting, aggressive dog, we will not be able to keep her, and that would break all our hearts as we love her already ! She is purebred, from a breeder, not a shop, etc.

Have to go and organise myself, will come back later this morning and check any responses, any advice or help is greatly appreciated.

Edited December 2, 2007 by littlelabrador

[sheree_e4]

I am a carer and I find hand feeding puppies makes them realise that a hand near food is a good thing.

WEEK 1.only fed from hand no bowl.(pat with other hand while feeding)

WEEK 2. hand feed but with hand in bowl with pup taking food out of hand.(pat with other hand while feeding)(food is not in bowl,have i on the bench and take in your hand to the bowl....only a couple of peices at a time)

WEEK 3. food in bowl but hand is in the bowl while eating.pat aswell

By week 4 90% are happy to be patted while being fed.

those who arnt happy week 2 lasts longer.

Also I have a 23mth old daughter so my dogs (9yrs,5yrs and 22mths) have been taught that if a hand goes near or in the bowl they are to sit.

teach this after the dog is happy with you around her food

to teach this put some boring food in bowl,then have some really nice smelly food (cabanossi is great)let your pup start eating the boring stuff then walk up while she is eating and let her sniff the "yummy"food and ask her to sit reward when she is not touching the food then release (ok) to go back to eating whats in bowl repeat this over and over for a week then just put your hand on the bowl (food in pocket) and say sit when she does give her the nice food and then use the release again.eventually when you put your hand near her bowl she will automatically sit expecting a yummy reward.(I taught my dogs this in approx 2 mths to do it without fail while i was still pregnant.)

Do you have a crate?

hope this helps

Edited October 31, 2007 by sheree_e4

[littlelabrador]

Thanks, i will try the handfeeding, cant hurt to give it a go, thats for sure.

No, dont have a crate, we decided against it, because she is happy sleeping on her bed in our kitchen at night, no problems there, and we cant fit a crate in our car, so no point really.

[blacklabrador]

You need professional help with this dog otherwise you will end up rehoming her. She sounds like a handful that needs proper management. Consider getting get in a dog behaviourist to teach you how to manage her. Also let the dog breeder know of the problems you are having with her. Greg and Nina I believe? Let them know immediately that you are struggling with the pup.

Don't think that because a dog is a certain breed means that they can't show aggressive behaviours. She is a dog. BUT don't blame her and label her aggressive and dump her. The problem actually lies with you. I don't think all of what she is doing is aggression but you really need to get on top of it NOW. The running in circles and biting is excitement I would think. This pup has no respect for you or your husband and that is what you need to turn around.

Ditch puppy preschool - it's usually run by vet nurses who have very little dog behaviour experience. You need to have your dog at a proper obedience school. They aren't expensive if you find the right kind (not a private one). If you let us know where you live I am sure someone can come up with

Edited October 31, 2007 by blacklabrador

[BC]

She sounds like a normal lab puppy to me, apart from the food bit, but that can be worked on.

I strongly suggest obedience training when she's a little older, but you need to establish who the leaders are now. She is going to to a large dog and labs tend to mature much later than some other breeds of dogs.

When she jumps keep turning your back on her, when she nips yell in a high pitched voice "ouch" and then turn your back. The worst punishment for a dog is to be ignored. When she calms down she gets pats and gentle play.

She is only 11 weeks old and needs to learn a lot yet, and it is going to take a lot of time and persistence. As with any dog breed, if you are prepared to put the time and effort in you will end up with a lovely dog but you need to give it a lot of time. They dont learn overnight.

Edited October 31, 2007 by BC

[sheree_e4]

Ditch puppy preschool - it's usually run by vet nurses who have very little dog behaviour experience. You need to have your dog at a proper obedience school. They aren't expensive if you find the right kind (not a private one). If you let us know where you live I am sure someone can come up with

I have to disagree with this statement - I am vet nurse and I am also an obedience instructor and I teach puppy pre school at the vets where I work.Do NOT assume about vet nurses it really bugs me how people think this....I guarantee if you follow what I tell you - you will have a well behaved dog.

[littlelabrador]

I was thinking we might need some proper dog training right now ! We are on the lower NSW Central Coast, if anyone can recommend someone. Otherwise i might try the yellow pages. Wouldn't all trainers be private ?? I'm a bit confused.

Why would telling the breeders be of any use ?? They know she has been unwell, but weren't really able to help there, all of the other pups from the litter have not had the gut problems Molly has had.

We had labs when i was a kid, i cant remember if this behaviour is normal or not. She is so much better with me during the day than she is at night. I wasn't sure if it is just that she wants my husbands attention at night ? And no, we are not planning to 'dump her'. We waited a long time to get a puppy, something we all wanted, and my daughter is just in love with her, but we cant have aggression, thats the only problem.

[sheree_e4]

Other things you can start now are

Feed her after the family has eaten - pack leaders eat first

All people walk through doorways/gates first

Do not let her higher than yourself .......If you are on the lounge she is on the floor.

Do not pat her when she comes up to you.......pat her when you want(except if you have called her)

ignore her when you come home....about 5 mins then say hi when she is calm.

if she jumps on you walk towards her

only pat her if her bum is on the floor.....do not talk to her until she sits

walk her twice daily if possible.

put her out while you are eating or tie her away from you.

[littlelabrador]

Actually, re the puppy school, it is run by our local vets, and we've only been twice so far, but i must say that the vet nurse teaching it does definitely seem to know what she's talking about. She has talked a lot about dog behaviour, language etc. But we were planning on obedience training too anyway. Just might be sooner than i expected.

[blacklabrador]

Ditch puppy preschool - it's usually run by vet nurses who have very little dog behaviour experience. You need to have your dog at a proper obedience school. They aren't expensive if you find the right kind (not a private one). If you let us know where you live I am sure someone can come up with

I have to disagree with this statement - I am vet nurse and I am also an obedience instructor and I teach puppy pre school at the vets where I work.Do NOT assume about vet nurses it really bugs me how people think this....I guarantee if you follow what I tell you - you will have a well behaved dog.

Sorry Sheree. It might not be the case where you work but it is the case very often.

People take their puppies to PP thinking they are taking them to obedience and it is no substitute. I LOVE PP and still take my new pups there for socialisation. But the real obedience must start ASAP after that 12 week needle IMO.

[poodlefan]

Sheree:

I guarantee if you follow what I tell you - you will have a well behaved dog.

That's a pretty tall order considering you've never seen the pup Sheree. No qualified experienced trainer I know would make it, particularly without having observed the dog and its owner interact. Internet diagnosis and modification of dog behaviour is fraught with uncertainty and can be downright dangerous at times. There are far too many variables involved.

Littlelab, I second Blacklabs suggestion that you get a professionally qualified and accredited behaviouralist out to see your pup. Teething problems with settling a puppy into a family and establishing boundaries of acceptable behaviour are not unusual and with such an intelligent, active breed quite normal.

It would be the rare puppy buyer who hasn't had those "oh my god what have we done" moments about dog ownership and early intervention by someone who can see you and the pup interact can set you on the path to a well mannered, happy dog (and a happy owner)

I have not seen this pup but the mouthing, barking and behaving completely psycho sound like perfectly normal puppy behaviour. You need ways to occupy that growing mind and body and right now you are the best playmates your pup has. You need to show her what play is acceptable and what play isn't. Gundogs are mouthy babies and the first thing you need to teach is that NO CONTACT between her teeth and any human is acceptable. Do a search here on "mouthing" and you'll find lots of suggestions for dealing with it. At her age, many gundog puppies literally run at you with their mouths open to latch on. You need a consistent, effective deterrance strategy.

As for the growling over food. The technical term for it is 'resource guarding' and, if mishandled, it can turn into a real issue. Constant mucking about with food can increase some dogs levels of anxiety about it and actually worsen the problem.

The crate suggestion is a good one. This is about giving the pup a safe 'den' in your home AND providing a method of ensuring your dog does not have unsupervised interactions with your child while you are occupied elsewhere. How you transport her in the car is a side issue. I'd strongly recommend you get one and leave it set up permanently somewhere.

Until you've sought a consult with a professional, I'd be feeding her in there undisturbed. Put her in, ask her to sit at the back, place the food in and release him to eat (this will have to be trained). Then leave her alone to eat his dinner, release her when she's done and remove the bowl.

Great family dogs are made, Littlelab, not born. Some professional advice and the implementation of a program of consistent training will set you on the path. I consider an ongoing program of obedience training mandatory for gundogs until they reach maturity at around two.

Incidentally, no pup of this age should be doing much onlead walking IMO. It's too hard on growing bones.

And to answer your question? Yes, labs can be aggressive. No breed can or cannot be aggressive. It's a combination of genes, experiences and environment that determine temperament.

Edited: Molly is a "she"

Edited October 31, 2007 by poodlefan

[blacklabrador]

walk her twice daily if possible.

???? Has she had her vaccinations to be allowed to do this?

Sorry Sheree but I believe these people need more than just a few instructions over the net. This is a somewhat serious situation (well it could be if it's not managed properly).

[sheree_e4]

I have to disagree with this statement - I am vet nurse and I am also an obedience instructor and I teach puppy pre school at the vets where I work.Do NOT assume about vet nurses it really bugs me how people think this....I guarantee if you follow what I tell you - you will have a well behaved dog.

SORRY I should clarify .........what I ment in this statement was I Guarentee all my classes that I run.

[poodlefan]

SORRY I should clarify .........what I ment in this statement was I Guarentee all my classes that I run.

Good for you. I don't because you can give the best classes in the world but unless the handler takes onboard what you say in those classes and implements it at home, you are shouting into the wind. Honestly, sometimes I despair at some of the dog/owner combinations I see.

[sheree_e4]

Good for you. I don't because you can give the best classes in the world but unless the handler takes onboard what you say in those classes and implements it at home, you are shouting into the wind. Honestly, sometimes I despair at some of the dog/owner combinations I see.

I agree with what you are saying which is why I only guarantee them if you do implement what I am teaching at school at home aswell,90 % of the people that come to puppy pre school Do come to obedience class where I teach after they have completed puppy pre school, I also give private lessons to people if they need them.

[Monah]

We had many more problems than this with our vizsla when we got her at 12 weeks, inc. fear biting and hiding behind things, scared of dogs, strangers, children, anything behind her etc. We spent a LOT of time training, puppy school, obed, agility(for confidence and it took a year for her to 'use' equipment without freaking out). She also had no bite inhibition as she was a singleton pup and had never had others to experiment on. We are pretty soft, never had any doggie probs, so it was quite a shock to say the least. With lots of work, very firm rules, consistancy and a professional behaviourist, we now have the most wonderful, gorgeous, obedient dog ever. She's so great, nearly 2, and I'm over the moon with her. I'd love a hundred vizs if I could. They are now THE dog. She is still very demanding and will always have a more dominant personality than our other dogs, but she's an amazing dog and we love her to bits.

Please get prof. assistance. Most of your post is normal puppy stuff, but if the dominance and lack of respect is not nipped in the bud now, you will have a really big problem, which you obviously realise, hence your post. zoomies at night are really common for the first 12 months, that's pretty normal, but the other stuff is not. I agree about teaching the pup to sit, then maybe say OK so it knows it is allowed to eat, and not interfere with the bowl etc. There are NILIF and Triangle info on dol which I found excellent and very helpful. Our dog was also mouthy, until my hands bled. Nothing stopped her so we used a water spray bottle and a very loud ARGHHH! She stopped within a week. I was too nice and gentle about it before. Now she is never without a soft toy in her mouth and has never mouthed us. Anyway, Ireally wish you luck, 'brain' training will also wear a pup out without the stress of physical (growing bones) stuff. I'm certainly no expert but just posted so youknow you're not alone.xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx big hug for you I can't stress enough about how important it is to have your pup assessed by a behaviourist and a program drawn up for you. Saved me!

[Animal House]

Littlelabrador, where are you located?

That way, some of the Doler's can give you a good recommendation for a professional dog trainer (like K9) for you lab puppy. Better to get one that comes recommended than looking in the yellow pages, not all are good ones.

[littlelabrador]

wow, ok, i wasn't expecting to start an argument about puppy preschools.

For clarification. We are going to puppy preschool, and i am implementing what they say, at home. I have used their method to teach 'sit' and she learnt that within a couple days. 90% of the time, when i ask her to sit she will. 100% when with just me, less so when my daughter and husband are also in the room. We have only been twice so far. I am getting my husband to take her this weekend, as i think he needs to learn how to handle her too, on the lead, etc, rather than just my going and telling him when i get home.

We are going to do obedience training too, but i thought that started after puppy preschool. I do think she probably needs it now, so i will look into it now.

She is a very active pup at times. Her habit seems to be a bit of activity in the morning, a sleep, a bit more activity around lunchtime, sleeps most of the afternoon, then wild in the evenings. Right now, shes just lying quietly at my feet ! On days that we are home by ourselves, she really is quite placid. She just seems to get so reved up when my hubby is home (and he does nothing to cause that, he ignores the bad behaviour, but if he says 'no' gruffly to her, she just goes nuts).

I am going to take on board the advice to get a professional out to see her, if i can find one, as i think someone seeing her in her own evironment, with us, will get better results.

blacklab - No, we are NOT walking her yet. She has only just this week had her second vaccination, because she's been unwell, the vet did not want to give it till now. In a couple weeks she will get the 3rd, then a couple weeks after that we can take her out. The only place she has gone is puppy preschool. My father owns a 11yr old male black lab, and i am going to take her to see him next week maybe. (he is fully vaccinated, etc).

Please dont think because i am coming here for advice that i am some ignorant, new owner who knows nothing. I am coming here to ask for advice because i know there are lots of breeders and trainers on this forum, who maybe can point us in the right direction. We love this puppy and dont want to have to rehome her, we want her well trained, etc.

Some of you seem to think we need training help, others seem to think its normal behaviour. I am going to look into the training so i can be sure we are on the right path.

[littlelabrador]

We are on the lower NSW Central Coast, near Gosford.

Monah, yes a water spray bottle, i forgot that the vet nurse actually did say to try that when she jumps and nips at my husband at night, i forgot that, and haven't bought one yet. will do so today.

[4leggedvariety]

Implement as many as possible the leadership rules as sheree_e4 suggest. This lab puppy needs rules. Yes, lab puppies aren't always the easiest puppy to handle, especially if they are not the middle of the road temperament. Temperaments that gravitate towards either end of the spectrum need strong leadership and the owners must earn the dog's respect. Have very firm rules and try to project calm & assertive demeanor. Obedience training ie, teaching dogs how to respond to commands will help(reward based training), but do not confuse that with permissive training. Reward the good and correct the bad.

We must first earn the authority to lead then obedience train them and that authority comes from how we live with the dog on a 24 hour basis. Control all priviledges and do not ever lose your cool or get angry at the dog.