Automatic Sit

[ShellyBeggs]

My silly kelpie hasn't got the idea.....that when I stop he has to sit without me asking.

even if I walk a few paces and stop/sit......and repeat every 5 steps ...10 times or more.

Is it just he is still too immature (10 mo) for the penny to drop......or am I missing something.

If I stop and give no command, he just stands there...looking unsure of himself.

Any tips how to achieve this would be great????

[persephone]

Hi...

btw..I don't think your boy is silly ...he just is either not getting a reward for his effort, or your cues/commands have no meaning for him.

what reward does he get when he does it right?

I would suggest that in training, you always try and set the dog up to WIN

At the moment, you are stopping, saying nothing, and he is doing nothing.

Keep sessions short...a few minutes at a time is plenty..but do several sessions during the day.

You need to perhaps SAY "sit" while making him sit..then lots of praise!!!

eventually, just the stopping and a 'hint', make sure he sits..lots of praise...

then just stopping.

OR..find a nice LONG stretch of road..a km or two. walk along, in a straight line, stopping at kerbs, and making him sit..also a stop or two in between crossings.

(some-one else will come along and explain this in a MUCH more concise way

sorry )

Edited October 31, 2007 by persephone

[Arya]

My silly kelpie hasn't got the idea.....that when I stop he has to sit without me asking.

even if I walk a few paces and stop/sit......and repeat every 5 steps ...10 times or more.

Is it just he is still too immature (10 mo) for the penny to drop......or am I missing something.

If I stop and give no command, he just stands there...looking unsure of himself.

Any tips how to achieve this would be great????

The penny WILL drop if he does it once or twice and you manage to capture it. I would add another cue if I were you - and you aren't doing this already. Take a look at your footwork. Are you stopping on the right foot, giving the dog a cue this way? Use your footwork as the cue. The other thing is, if you are already doing this, are you taking a small step at the end and not giving the dog enough time or room to get the message? Take a slightly larger right step and then bring your left foot up beside and see if he sits. If you can get that one or two and mark well, he'll get it! A final alternative solution: This is use your left elbow. So walk along with your dog in correct heel position. Then when you say sit, do the footwork thing but also move your elbow back. Your arm is bent at the elbow. Can you picture this? Repeat this lots and mark the correct behaviour, combining the word with the elbow cue. Really exaggerate the elbow cue. They will see your elbow go back and almost target your arm. Then, try with the sit and no voice again, just the elbow cue and the footwork. Then what you do is gradually fade the elbow cue out, back smaller and smaller until its not there and the dog is sitting. That is what I did to get a straight sit when I had an untidy but enthusiastic one, though the dog was automatic sitting it wasn't neat. I'll still exaggerate it in training now and again to get her to do it right and I have to watch my steps to give her enough room to sit well in the correct position. Test it out in the back yard where there's no distractions and see

[dogdude]

What method are you using? Aversive or other?

First teach focus and the rest will be easy. No attention equals a long hard road in all levels of obedience.

Once you have it, get your (hungry) dog to heel along in a straight line (off lead preferably) and use your left hand to lure a moist smelly treat just above his nose and get him to follow it along for a few steps.

When you have some nice attention, slowly come to a stop on your left leg while luring upward and slightly backwards (no command needed until exercise is learnt). He should rock back to follow it into a sit........ reward for a compliance.

Do this a number of times, then only reward every second sit, etc etc over a few days until he has chained a good sequence of sits together until a large reward.

When you are at that stage, start rewarding him with his meal at meal time. This will take the direct focus off the food and will develop a drive to work with.

[Arya]

What method are you using? Aversive or other?

First teach focus and the rest will be easy. No attention equals a long hard road in all levels of obedience.

Once you have it, get your (hungry) dog to heel along in a straight line (off lead preferably) and use your left hand to lure a moist smelly treat just above his nose and get him to follow it along for a few steps.

When you have some nice attention, slowly come to a stop on your left leg while luring upward and slightly backwards (no command needed until exercise is learnt). He should rock back to follow it into a sit........ reward for a compliance.

Do this a number of times, then only reward every second sit, etc etc over a few days until he has chained a good sequence of sits together until a large reward.

When you are at that stage, start rewarding him with his meal at meal time. This will take the direct focus off the food and will develop a drive to work with.

Dogdude, do you stop on the left leg? Just curious. I have this 'argument' with a friend. Not an argument really but he stops on left leg (should listen to him really as he is so much better) but I always stop on right leg and bring left leg up. this gives the dog 'time' to stop at my left leg if you know what I mean. But my friend says no, neater for the dog to stop if you stop with left leg first.

Just curious. Not hijacking thread LOL. These are things you need to think about when teaching your sit Shelly.

[BC]

I would continue to tell him as he is still not sure what he is meant to do.

My last step is with my right foot, and slightly larger than my normal pacing steps. I then bring my left leg up and make sure my body is staight up and I would say sit at the same time as bringing up your left leg to a halt.

As he is still learning you can really exaggerate the last step on the right and bringing up your left.

Keep repeating this, and one day soon you will be pleasantly surprised !!!!

[dogdude]

Sorry Arya, my instrution skills can be confusing at times...even to myself. I did mean coming to a halt as you described. I agree with your argument about cuing.

[Guest Tiggy]

My Stafford Banjo has just turned six months and he's great at automatic sits so I don't think it's an age thing. Like the others said you need to capture the dog with a click and treat or yes and treat and the dog will soon catch on.

[Arya]

Sorry Arya, my instrution skills can be confusing at times...even to myself. I did mean coming to a halt as you described. I agree with your argument about cuing.

Oh, okay I just wondered if I had found someone else who stops with their left foot first LOL :rolleyes: I have tried to do it and somehow just can't. But this person is pretty well a master of footwork and basically, nothing is too hard for him I think. I, on the other hand, was born with two left feet, have trouble remembering how to walk in a straight line and am prone to bumping into things, including my dog

I agree with the others too Shelley, when they say set your dog up to win. If he doesn't get it, whatever you do work hard not to let him lose confidence. Keep him confident and then he won't be stressed and he'll learn quicker and more eagerly.

And no way is your dog silly - I always blame myself if the dog doesn't get something. It's the trainer just about every time. Unless the dog knows the excercise like the back of its paw and is testing you. But even then, if you get the training right this won't happen much ;) Let us all know how you're progressing!!!!!!!!!!!

[Vonasche]

Hey Shelly, part of Anzac's problem is that he is tooooo busy gawking around We need to do more focus work with him.

Because he has the tendancy to swing his body away from you when you try to sit him, I would be walking him along a fenceline, or your hallway at home, and making him sit. Having something solid to the left of him will not allow him to swing away from you.

Given that he is not food driven (except maybe for my liver bread) and still has an evasion to the clicker, i would be hesitant in using this method, just for now. Continue to de-sensitize him to the clicker at home.

You are doing well with Anzac. We can do some work with him on Saturday, if you like.

[ShellyBeggs]

Hey Shelly, part of Anzac's problem is that he is tooooo busy gawking around We need to do more focus work with him.

Because he has the tendancy to swing his body away from you when you try to sit him, I would be walking him along a fenceline, or your hallway at home, and making him sit. Having something solid to the left of him will not allow him to swing away from you.

Given that he is not food driven (except maybe for my liver bread) and still has an evasion to the clicker, i would be hesitant in using this method, just for now. Continue to de-sensitize him to the clicker at home.

You are doing well with Anzac. We can do some work with him on Saturday, if you like.

OMG I tried walking up and down the hallway getting him to sit.....he gets all loopy jumping up and nipping at my arm (like he did the figure 8 a training).....it hypes him up. I thought it was because that is his play-zone...SO I tried outside on the garage wall and same thing.... I don't know why he steps back and swings away when he sits......he does it at home off lead too.

I am beginning to wonder if he has a vision problem????? Needs to be further away to see the treat properly??

Maybe needs a trip to the vet?

Its the only thing I can think of as to why if I hold food under his nose and tell him to sit he has to step back 3 steps to sit. And I don't throw food at him so have to step forward to give it to him.

He is starting to look for the treat at home when i click....so nearly there on the desensitisation. He will even nose poke my pocket for the cheese!!! Just like Miss Diva.... I certainly am not using the clicker for training......I keep it in my pocket and click/treat at random times, in random places.....when at home and out.

[MrsD]

Oh, okay I just wondered if I had found someone else who stops with their left foot first LOL

I stop with my left foot first ie left foot stops & right foot comes up to it. Always have, don't know why the chief instructor at my old club was a footwork Nazi & drilled stuff into us so I have pretty good footwork (pity I have no sense of balance anymore & can't walk staight anymore ), but that's the way I do my halts. Also rather than taking a large last step I take a smaller step, lets the dog know that something (& not fast pace :D ) is coming.

But seriously, I think the most important thing is consistency, not just what foot you stop on .

[Guest Eza]

I havent read all the replies so I dont know if someones already asked.

Do you always use the same leg when stopping? I always use my left leg when I stop and my right to walk off.

Oops just seen MrsD posted the same thing.

[Arya]

Oh, okay I just wondered if I had found someone else who stops with their left foot first LOL

I stop with my left foot first ie left foot stops & right foot comes up to it. Always have, don't know why the chief instructor at my old club was a footwork Nazi & drilled stuff into us so I have pretty good footwork (pity I have no sense of balance anymore & can't walk staight anymore ), but that's the way I do my halts. Also rather than taking a large last step I take a smaller step, lets the dog know that something (& not fast pace :D ) is coming.

But seriously, I think the most important thing is consistency, not just what foot you stop on .

Wish I was a footwork Nazi, would solve quite a few of my problems! I'm working on becoming one So another person who stops on the left and brings right foot up. I was trying it this afternoon. Its quite hard to swap over and get right. My friend's principle is that if the dog is in correct heel position, they should stop neater and quicker if you stop on the left leg. I see you use a small step too Mrs D so your sits must look pretty sharp!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am thinking of swapping over to speed up my girl's sits as she holds good heel position. Interesting about the smaller step. My GSD girl seems to need a big one to have time to sit. Wonder if its cos she's bigger dog or because she's not sharp enough at it yet.

SHELLEY, I know it is annoying but that jumping up nipping at your arm etc. you can get to work for you in the end. When my dog has done this in the past I don't really reprimand or push her down, just put the other hand up in the way of your arm or mix up your pace. You have to be careful. Look at it from the dog's pov. You are having a good time, going hyper with your pack leader and then you get reprimanded for being over enthusiastic and it kills your drive and desire to be close to handler and you hang back a bit or hang away a bit or look away when heeling. If I were you, when your dog leaps up and nips and hypes out, drive forward, use encouraging 'heel Anzac, good dog, let's heel!' Talk to the dog, distract from the nipping and use that drive. My opinion and I'm sure others will disagree is not to squash that drive, just redirect it back into good, fast, enthusiastic heeling with patience.

Just my opinion but something to think about and something that works for me.

[MrsD]

I see you use a small step too Mrs D so your sits must look pretty sharp!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Actually my sits are shocking cos I can't get down on the ground fast enough, but the dog's are pretty good :D .

I will see if I can get a short video of Jarrah's heeling & automatic sits, we went to obedience training for the first time last night since April (we've been concentrating on herding) & his sits & drops were so fast it was unbelievable :) . Jonty's sits are also really fast, I have to be careful on the left about turns with him cos occasionally if Im not quite fast enough to step out of the turn he has already sat (ie when he comes around behind into the heel position).

My GSDs were always slower than my current dogs, but still fairly fast. Not sure if it's the footwork or something else?

SHELLEY, I know it is annoying but that jumping up nipping at your arm etc. you can get to work for you in the end. When my dog has done this in the past I don't really reprimand or push her down, just put the other hand up in the way of your arm or mix up your pace. You have to be careful. Look at it from the dog's pov. You are having a good time, going hyper with your pack leader and then you get reprimanded for being over enthusiastic and it kills your drive and desire to be close to handler and you hang back a bit or hang away a bit or look away when heeling. If I were you, when your dog leaps up and nips and hypes out, drive forward, use encouraging 'heel Anzac, good dog, let's heel!' Talk to the dog, distract from the nipping and use that drive. My opinion and I'm sure others will disagree is not to squash that drive, just redirect it back into good, fast, enthusiastic heeling with patience.

Just my opinion but something to think about and something that works for me.

I absolutely totally agree with Arya, USE the drive that he is showing to your advantage, I have always done that with my dogs & it has worked well for me. When he's jumping up & being silly encourage him to heel along beside you for a few paces & then heaps & heaps of praise & let him jump around when you do, he will soon learn that heeling is the best fun cos he gets a great game with you . You just ned to direct it, make your heeling sharp & fast & short & he will start working well. I would much rather have a dog that jumps around like a loon to train than a dead slug .