Lil Miss LeiLani Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 Hi everyone, I posted a few months ago about the problem we are having with Zorro, and agression towards children. We did get a behaviourist out last month, and he told us to go outside with Zorro, and the kids from next door, for about 4-5mins at a time, about 3 times a week. As we get home in the evening, and the kids aren't out playing at that time, espeically now with the warmer weather, they are in the pool, its very hard for us to do this. However, Zorro obviously does have a problem with all kids now, becuase of the ones next door, and we want to fix this so it doesn't get worse. He hates all children now, and is uncomfortable around them, starts trying to pull away from the leash, and starts barking and wanting to lunge at them. We never used to have a problem, but because of the kids tormenting him in the past, it is now carved in his memory. What can we do ??? He is great with all people & other dogs, strangers no worries and wants to give everyone a cuddle & a kiss, but have a kid around, and its a different story. As we don't have any children in the family, he hasn't had much socialization with kids, and since the ones next door were mean to him, perhaps he now thinks all children are like that. He is a desexed 10month old (nearly 11mth) male border collie. Please help!!! We don't want any problems or to have to give him away or worse, have him put down because he has bitten someone! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 (edited) What were the "behavioralists" qualifications C&Z?? Any "behaviouralist" who's suggestion was that you use the kids next door (the very ones who created this behaviour) as guinea pigs and without professional supervision sounds off the mark to me. I'd be looking for a second [better] opinion but you need a program of desensitisation and you need a secure safe place for Zorro to be during the day (I think a run was recommended before?) Edited October 31, 2007 by poodlefan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Miss LeiLani Posted October 31, 2007 Author Share Posted October 31, 2007 Thanks Poodlefan. Since speaking to the kids' parents, the problem kids no longer play along that side of the house, and we haven't seen much of them at all lately. They've been very good. (shame its too late now!). The behaviourist came from Bonnies (Val Bonney) - his name is Ian Wilson. I think he's been working with Bonnies for a long time, and has border collies also. I think in a way it was a waste of $200 as alot of the stuff I already knew from research on the net, it was mainly to see if Zorro was an agressive dog, which he isn't, and to sort out this problem with the kids. The problem is, is our side of the house where the outdoor area is, is where Zorro's bed is, so the covered area looks straight on to the fence where the house is. As we have a small block, whereever we were to put zorro, he would be able to see the house where the kids are. We thought about putting him inside all day, but thats not fair. Theres no area we can put him that he can't see the area. We do have a small (about 1m wide) concrete pathway up the otherside of the house, but thats not a good place for a dog, theres no shade, no grass or anything, so I don't think that will work ! I just don't know what to do ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 C&Z: I think in a way it was a waste of $200 as alot of the stuff I already knew from research on the net, it was mainly to see if Zorro was an agressive dog, which he isn't, and to sort out this problem with the kids. If he isn't aggressive, then what is his reaction to the kids? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 (edited) You could always give the behaviourist I recommended to you a try, she is highly qualified and has worked with Steve from K9 Force (in fact she was a guest speaker at a seminar for him recently). Her consults are $80 to start with so it won't be that expensive. ETA: She has had a lot of experience dealing with aggressive issues in dogs. Edited October 31, 2007 by husky87 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Miss LeiLani Posted October 31, 2007 Author Share Posted October 31, 2007 Poodlefan - obviously he is agressive towards children due to the past experience, but in general is not an agressive dog. I think it is a fear agression, as he seems quite scared of them. The other day when we were hopping in the car, the kids were out the front, and zorro couldn't hop in the car quick enough to escape them ! Husky87 - I did hear back from jane, but she was $198, so we ended up going with Bonnies as they too were reccomended to us from our obedience classes, and they operate in our area. I just can't afford to spend another $200 to be told the same thing. But on the other hand, if our problem can be fixed differently & more conveniently, then it would of course be worth it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Miss LeiLani Posted October 31, 2007 Author Share Posted October 31, 2007 To quote what the behaviourist said.. "If they (kids next door) are unwilling to work with you, I have a concern that Zorro may never overcome his aggression with children and you may need to look at alternative housing for him." I couldn't believe that. I was so shocked !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 (edited) Poodlefan - obviously he is agressive towards children due to the past experience, but in general is not an agressive dog. I think it is a fear agression, as he seems quite scared of them. The other day when we were hopping in the car, the kids were out the front, and zorro couldn't hop in the car quick enough to escape them !Husky87 - I did hear back from jane, but she was $198, so we ended up going with Bonnies as they too were reccomended to us from our obedience classes, and they operate in our area. I just can't afford to spend another $200 to be told the same thing. But on the other hand, if our problem can be fixed differently & more conveniently, then it would of course be worth it. Ah ok sorry bout that, just realised ours was not a home consult so was probably different in price for that reason. Hope you can find a solution I understand the reluctance to spend more money when you have already got someone in, it can be quite disheartening when you don't get any results. ETA: Just saw your recent post and it sounds like a load of BS!!!!! That would be like me being told unless other people stopped walking their dogs near mine, he will never over come his dominance/aggression issues. I would contact Jane and tell her what the behaviourist has told you, how disheartening it was etc and see what she says - it might give you a good indication of how she would work with you to solve the problem and how it can be different to what you've already tried. Edited October 31, 2007 by husky87 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Miss LeiLani Posted October 31, 2007 Author Share Posted October 31, 2007 Makes me think that maybe we should try someone else.... Jane seemed lovely in her emails, and willing to help. Might even tell her the situation and that we've had someone out already and what he said, and see what she thinks. Perhaps we just need to socialise him with more children and show him they are not all bad. How did you work through with Micha ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Miss LeiLani Posted October 31, 2007 Author Share Posted October 31, 2007 ...jinx !! lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 (edited) Makes me think that maybe we should try someone else....Jane seemed lovely in her emails, and willing to help. Might even tell her the situation and that we've had someone out already and what he said, and see what she thinks. Perhaps we just need to socialise him with more children and show him they are not all bad. How did you work through with Micha ? LOL @ the jinx Micha's problems were a bit different but also started from negative experiences. He was attacked a few times as a puppy and younger dog, and had negative socialisation with dogs that dominanted him. He became a bully and would dominant young puppies. He would mouth at their necks (not causing injury but scaring them) and would dominate them. It got worse when a stray dog tried to attack us on the way home - after that he started lunging at any dog we passed in the street and would want to dominate every new dog he met, he was automatically defensive. Jane developed a program for us where I worked on getting Micha's focus on me and not other dogs. She set out a training program where I would work on getting his focus over time before increasing the distance we could be near other dogs. Obviously it is something that took time but I can now take Micha to obedience classes and be within metres of other dogs without his focus waning. His patience was tested by an exuberant adolescent GSD the other night but I gave him a correction and he was back on track ETA: In the past Micha would have lunged and howled at the GSD and his focus would have been entirely on the other dog, his hackles would have been up etc. It feels very empowering to make progress with him and have him feel comfortable and confident around other dogs now Jane gave me a lot of support via email and we only needed one consult with her I don't think she would ever give up on a dog or put anything in the too hard basket. Edited October 31, 2007 by husky87 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Miss LeiLani Posted October 31, 2007 Author Share Posted October 31, 2007 That sounds great. I think we perhaps need to put Zorro in a situation where there are kids around, and correct him when he starts to misbehave. But as we don't have kids or really know any, it is hard. When we take him to the markets of a sunday, there are lots of kids around, but he doesn't even pay attention to them. When we go to obedience classes, there are a couple of kids there, if they come too close, he starts to get funny, and same with kids at the beach on the weekend. Not at the dog park though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 (edited) That sounds great. I think we perhaps need to put Zorro in a situation where there are kids around, and correct him when he starts to misbehave. But as we don't have kids or really know any, it is hard. When we take him to the markets of a sunday, there are lots of kids around, but he doesn't even pay attention to them. When we go to obedience classes, there are a couple of kids there, if they come too close, he starts to get funny, and same with kids at the beach on the weekend. Not at the dog park though... I am no expert but I think that instead of putting him in a situation where he has direct contact with kids, maybe work towards this whilst improving his focus and attention on you. He obviously has a fear of kids so at the moment I would not put him into a situation where he has to be around them, until his focus is at a point where he will look to you for direction instead of looking at the kids. Micha's focus was ok until a dog came along and then I could jump up and down screaming and he wouldn't care... I think in this situation training might need to be very gradual, by forcing him to sit with kids I think it is making his behaviour worse. ETA: I thought with Micha if I kept taking him to the dog park and socialising him with other dogs that his behaviour would get better, instead it got worse. Edited October 31, 2007 by husky87 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vickie Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 I think we perhaps need to put Zorro in a situation where there are kids around, and correct him when he starts to misbehave. Please don't do that, it can only end in disaster & is incredibly unfair to the dog, especially if you don't really know what you're doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rom Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 I think we perhaps need to put Zorro in a situation where there are kids around, and correct him when he starts to misbehave. Please don't do that, it can only end in disaster & is incredibly unfair to the dog, especially if you don't really know what you're doing. I agree. Think of it like this: If you had a fear of something, and the person that you thought you could most trust punished you when showed that you were frightened in the presence of that trigger, do you think your stress levels would increase or decrease? Your stress would probably increase and you would either increase your reactivity to the trigger and/or learn to hide the signs that you were frightened. Thing is, you can only hide that stuff for a certain period of time until one day you just bust out or succumb to other stress related problems. Further more, how do you think you would feel about the person that you thought you could trust to keep you safe? Please consider seeing Jane, or if you can hang out until March next year, K9 Force is coming this way. Yes, as mentioned above corrections are sometimes used in cases of aggression, however circumstances are carefully set up and there are specifics that you need to understand before you attempt this, so please get some coaching on exactly what to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 (edited) There is no way on earth I'd expose Zorro to a child, ANY child, before I'd received adviceand hands on assistance from a qualified behaviouralist (and by that I don't mean a dog trainer) Your own an aggressive dog C&Z. Sure, he's not aggressive all the time and towards all things but I don't know an aggressive dog who is. The fact that his aggression is probably fear related will be small consolation to the parents of any child he happens to bite. To the victim and their parents, why he bit won't matter one iota. I'd not have him unmuzzled near kids without an appropriate supervised program of behaviour modification. You risk his life doing anything less. In terms of advice, you're to some degree going to get what you pay for. You want a behavioural specialist with a track record for dealing with such an issue and not just some general advice. In the meantime, make a visual barrier (eg. shade cloth or PVC) that screens Zorro from that yard. Edited October 31, 2007 by poodlefan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RL1 Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 In terms of advice, you're to some degree going to get what you pay for. You want a behavioural specialist with a track record for dealing with such an issue and not just some general advice. Have to disagree with that, i've spent a fair bit of money on one's with a so called proven track record and didn't get much more than advice. I guess it's a matter of finding the right one. I myself have all but given up on handing over anymore cash to these so called specialist trainers. I really wonder now if some trainers receive their qualifications out of a cornflake's box. I hope the topic starter finds the right one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 (edited) In terms of advice, you're to some degree going to get what you pay for. You want a behavioural specialist with a track record for dealing with such an issue and not just some general advice. Have to disagree with that, i've spent a fair bit of money on one's with a so called proven track record and didn't get much more than advice. I guess it's a matter of finding the right one. I myself have all but given up on handing over anymore cash to these so called specialist trainers. I really wonder now if some trainers receive their qualifications out of a cornflake's box. I hope the topic starter finds the right one. If she contacts Jane she will be on the right track Edited October 31, 2007 by husky87 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Jones Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 To be fair to the trainer that Husky87 has mentioned in this thread RottyLover01 you have not used her services. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RL1 Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 To be fair to the trainer that Husky87 has mentioned in this thread RottyLover01 you have not used her services. Absolutely correct, i haven't used Jane Harper, nor did i mention her name at all. As my reply clearly stated, my reference was per the one's i've used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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