Clyde Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 KitKat would you know what the prong covers are listed under please? I can't find them on that site. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Jones Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 (edited) Dru, Try clicking on the link for "HS collar" and they shoukd come up. if not try this link Linky *slaps head* Sorry Dru I read your post as asking where the prong collars were listed not the covers . my mistake. I dont think fordogtrainers sell the covers Edited October 31, 2007 by Jeff Jones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KitKat Posted October 31, 2007 Author Share Posted October 31, 2007 I can't seem to find them on the site as a separate item...if you email Guy he'll be able to give you the details tho? Should still be around the $10 US. I've seen them on other sites as well - got mine from a site in NZ from memory...will try and find a linky to the site Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rom Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 There is a rubber or neoprene(sp?) collar liner that you can at some pet stores. Its made for relining flat collars and has elastic straps that you just slide the flat collar through. Also works well as a prong cover. I think I paid about around $7.00 for mine, but I can't remember where I got it from....I have a feeling that it may have been in the pet section of a supermarket? You don't see them often, but I have a feeling that I've seen them recently...pet section at Big W? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mushaka Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 (edited) K9 or Erny,..is there a video of correct usage for a prong or is it used much the same as a martingale?? Size wise,how careful should you be? Given that Indie is nearing on 6mths now (19.4kg),and still growing,would i need to update regularly or again,is it much the same as the check chain ? Is this tool used only as a training collar,in the event that martingale strength is not enough? My only issue as i said ,is lunging..the rest of the time,since using the martingale to train,she walks quit well. However i just feel that i need something a little more. Once the dog is walking effectively,do u cease the use of the prong and use a regular collar,or do u continue its use? Sorry for asking so many questions!! Edited October 31, 2007 by Lewis & Lyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gillbear Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 Hehehe...i think i'm going to have to squirrel away some money and lay in wait for the next special...and hope it's while the dollar is still up! Knowing my luck when i decide to order it will plummit :rolleyes: David Koch was saying on Sunrise the other morning that our dollar is expected to continue to rise and may become even with the USD by christmas Woohoo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clyde Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 Thanks so much for all the help and info Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 (edited) K9 or Erny,..is there a video of correct usage for a prong or is it used much the same as a martingale?? I don't know of one. Leerburg has a DVD but the work he does with a dog is focused more on its application (timing of correction etc) for a dog who is aggro to other dogs. It is a strong working drive dog and IMO wouldn't be appropriate to the general pet dog. I don't even necessarily agree with everything that is said by Leerburg. You can use the prong-collar from levels starting from "guide" through to "correction". The correction doesn't need to be applied to the same degree as would a check chain or martingale for effectiveness. Size wise,how careful should you be? Given that Indie is nearing on 6mths now (19.4kg),and still growing,would i need to update regularly or again,is it much the same as the check chain ? You fit the prong-collar on to fit snug around the upper limits of the dog's neck. To fit, you add or reduce the amount of links. So you could purchase a collar with a few additional links and add them in as your dog grows. Is this tool used only as a training collar,in the event that martingale strength is not enough? It is a training tool. It should not be viewed (although it commonly is) as a "stepping up" in severity. Put very simply, flat collars, check chains and martingales all work on the dog's neck skin and muscle (with the high potential of affect on skeleton). The prong-collar predominantly works on the dog's skin with the dog responding before muscle tissue or skeleton is affected. So the prong-collar should (IMO) be viewed as a DIFFERENT training tool because the focus of its action is different to that of other collars. Once the dog is walking effectively,do u cease the use of the prong and use a regular collar,or do u continue its use? IMO "training" means teaching the dog what behaviour we want. Ideally the end goal of training should be that the dog exhibits the behaviour we want in the absence of any training aid. So where possible, I like to think we can wean off needing to use of any specific training aid - whatever that training aid happens to be. Many people work to this goal and achieve it (I have found, especially with the prong-collar). Some people obtain the behaviour they want with their chosen training aid and don't continue beyond that. IMO this applies to anything - not just the prong-collar. But I have found that success in weaning off has been more predominantly achieved after training with the prong-collar. But that's just me and my experience and I do not represent a majority. Edited October 31, 2007 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mushaka Posted November 1, 2007 Share Posted November 1, 2007 (edited) Erny,thanx so much,..exellent reply! Thanx for adding the "step up" part.. Tell me if im wrong,..It would be less physically draining to train a dog using the prong, for the handler,and better for the dog,as the correction wouldnt be so possibly damaging,pinching the skin rather than pulling on the dogs throat? Edited November 1, 2007 by Lewis & Lyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted November 1, 2007 Share Posted November 1, 2007 (edited) K9 or Erny,..is there a video of correct usage for a prong or is it used much the same as a martingale?? K9: In addition to what Erny has written, the use of the prong collar is really no different to using any correction collar, but, everyone has an ideal of the way they use it... I use an escalating style very light correction that to me preserves the dogs confidence & I find it easy to teach to others & they adapt & train very well, others choose a level of correction they feel adequate & deliver it... I am not a fan of this method for new trainers/handlers & I explain it this way.. If I offered someone $30 000 for their car & the said sold, I would have either, hit the exact amount of money they wanted or somewhere above. If I offered $10, $20, $30 & escalated until they said sold, I would have paid the exact correct amount.. I like to introduce new handlers to corrections the same way... Edited November 1, 2007 by K9 Force Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted November 1, 2007 Share Posted November 1, 2007 If I offered $10, $20, $30 & escalated until they said sold, I would have paid the exact correct amount.. And I would have said b%$gger off and come back when you decide to stop mucking around . Only kidding K9 - good analogy. And thanks for joining with the explanations, for in those I feel I hit my own limitations at times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted November 1, 2007 Share Posted November 1, 2007 E: And I would have said b%$gger off and come back when you decide to stop mucking around . K9: Yes, you may well have, but given your experience & mine, I would have delivered you a level ten correction with the prong... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted November 1, 2007 Share Posted November 1, 2007 It would be less physically draining to train a dog using the prong, for the handler ... Yes. And as a result the handler is not all pent up/frustrated with the exertion that might otherwise be required in the use of another style of collar. Dog's pick up on their handler's body language. If the handler can keep their body language quiet and calm, this too can "rub off" on the dog and helps to calm him. So you really have a couple of things happening. ... and better for the dog, as the correction wouldnt be so possibly damaging, pinching the skin rather than pulling on the dogs throat? You got it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted November 1, 2007 Share Posted November 1, 2007 E: And I would have said b%$gger off and come back when you decide to stop mucking around . K9: Yes, you may well have, but given your experience & mine, I would have delivered you a level ten correction with the prong... :D ..... that's almost sounding kinky K9. Careful ............................ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rom Posted November 1, 2007 Share Posted November 1, 2007 K9: In addition to what Erny has written, the use of the prong collar is really no different to using any correction collar, but, everyone has an ideal of the way they use it...I use an escalating style very light correction that to me preserves the dogs confidence & I find it easy to teach to others & they adapt & train very well, others choose a level of correction they feel adequate & deliver it... I am not a fan of this method for new trainers/handlers & I explain it this way.. If I offered someone $30 000 for their car & the said sold, I would have either, hit the exact amount of money they wanted or somewhere above. If I offered $10, $20, $30 & escalated until they said sold, I would have paid the exact correct amount.. I like to introduce new handlers to corrections the same way... My apologies in advance to the OP, but I think I'm about to take this a little off topic From a personal (and somewhat emotional) perspective, I like the above method too. But I'm curious as to your thoughts about the line of thinking that says that using the above method can a) desensitise the dog to lower level corrections and or b) subject the dog to unnecessary corrections until you find the right level where as going straight for the big guns may sensitise the dog to lower level corrections and mean that you will need fewer corrections over the course of time. I know that we have discussed this in the past and that I've read some e-collar stuff that supports the same principles that you talk about....I guess I'm just trying to cement it all in my head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted November 1, 2007 Share Posted November 1, 2007 (edited) E: ..... that's almost sounding kinky K9. Careful ............................ K9: people always hear what they want to hear dont they.... :D LL: It would be less physically draining to train a dog using the prong, for the handler,and better for the dog,as the correction wouldnt be so possibly damaging,pinching the skin rather than pulling on the dogs throat? K9: & keep in mind that many handlers need to "prepare themselves" to deliver a correction via say a check chain as it can require so much force with some dogs. Dog picks up on the preparation & as checks, martingales etc all apply the correction to muscle tissue, it can often render the correction useless. The prong works on skin not muscle. Also too some people need to use such a high level of force to correct their dog effectively, this raises adrenalin, frustration & sometimes anger in the trainer, which clouds judgement, destroys timing & breaks down the bond between the dog & handler... Giving them a more effective tool, teaching them how to read their dog & time corrections & improving the Alpha Status of the hanlder works very well for me... Edited November 1, 2007 by K9 Force Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted November 1, 2007 Share Posted November 1, 2007 R: But I'm curious as to your thoughts about the line of thinking that says that using the above method can a) desensitise the dog to lower level corrections and or b) subject the dog to unnecessary corrections until you find the right level where as going straight for the big guns may sensitise the dog to lower level corrections and mean that you will need fewer corrections over the course of time. K9: The text books talk about the use & timings of reinforcers in a way that I havent found accurate when actually working with dogs... See the undesireable behaviour, issue a command then give a correction (level of correction pre set)... The level must be such that it extinguishes the behaviour... Whilst this "will" work in the text book, explaining to someone how to determine a correction level is not that easy... Timing of some people is dreadful & many people will watch the "text book trainer" deliver a correction & wont replicate that level when the trainer isnt around. The leerburg video is a good example, Ed corrects a dog at a level that causes the dog to vocalise... Not a high percentage of people will do that.. So just the implementation will be a problem for many... There is no right & wrong, there is limited success with methods people arent comfortable with.. Some other issues are that these higher level corrections can deminish drive, create fear in the presence of the handler, cause the dog to shut down etc etc.. So whether it works or not isnt always the main reason to chose a method... I havent found any dog become desensitized to lower level corrections, because the level escalates until the behaviour changes. This takes the importance off timing & handler skill a little & gives the dog time to think & actually decide to change the behaviour, not have the behaviour shunted out of him... The dog isnt subjected to un neccessaru corrections either as the dog is free to change the behaviour at the first correction, & many do... Does that explain things briefly Rom? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted November 1, 2007 Share Posted November 1, 2007 (edited) I havent found any dog become desensitized to lower level corrections, because the level escalates until the behaviour changes. And IMO this is the key .... many people stay on a 'static' level correction and somehow expect a change in behaviour. The problem I have found, however, with using the "up scale" level of correction with other collars is that the dog can learn to brace against the correction, so the next level/s does not have the expected effect. The dog cannot "brace" its skin against the stimulation from the prong-collar. This is my own philosophy - but it makes sense to me. Edited November 1, 2007 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted November 1, 2007 Share Posted November 1, 2007 (edited) E: The problem I have found, however, with using the "up scale" level of correction with other collars is that the dog can learn to brace against the correction, so the next level/s does not have the expected effect.The dog cannot "brace" its skin against the stimulation from the prong-collar. This is my own philosophy - but it makes sense to me. K9: As per usual, I have an answer for that... When a dog is doing this, the dog is letting me know that what ever collar I am using right now, is not the collar this particular dog needs.. I believe the dog chooses the collar, I only use four training collars, martingale, prong, stabilisation collar & e collar. When we will be using a mechanical collar (eg prong or mart) I often start with the mart & show the people & myself how the dog responds to a properly sized & fitted martingale, most times "I could" successfully train the dog with a Martingale but I can see that I do have to make sure time & correction parametres are spot on. It isnt about what I can do, its about what I can teach the people to do... I can usually then determine that the handler will not start at that level & we try a prong collar. The dog is then trained with the collar that gets the handler the best results... Edited November 1, 2007 by K9 Force Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mushaka Posted November 1, 2007 Share Posted November 1, 2007 It would be less physically draining to train a dog using the prong, for the handler ... Yes. And as a result the handler is not all pent up/frustrated with the exertion that might otherwise be required in the use of another style of collar. Dog's pick up on their handler's body language. If the handler can keep their body language quiet and calm, this too can "rub off" on the dog and helps to calm him. So you really have a couple of things happening. ... and better for the dog, as the correction wouldnt be so possibly damaging, pinching the skin rather than pulling on the dogs throat? You got it. WHOOHOOOO I CAN be trained!! Thanx everyone!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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