Demodectic Mange

[myValkyrie]

My Maremma pup has localised demo mange (just thin hair around eyes) which we are treating. I'm worried about vaccinating him (due for his next one in a few days) while his immune system is trying to fight this off - he is 15 weeks old. Has anyone else been in this situation & what worked for you? Am I worrying about nothing? Or should I leave him go til he has recovered (or on the way, at least)?

[Scales of Justice]

I would not vaccinate at this point. Demodectic mange can be prompted by immune problems and vaccination at this point will only add strain to a compromised immune system. Provided the puppy has had its 12 weeks needles I would delay 16 week needles until demodex has receded - hopefully it will only be a week or two.

[~Anne~]

I would vaccinate.

Demodex can take some time to clear and it is not life threatening... whereas parvo is a death sentence.

[Cavandra]

I would not bother vaccinating, as his immune system is already compromised. If he had Protech brand vaccine it is only given twice, 3rd shot is not necessary.

Apple cider vinegar & Kelp mixed in his food each day will help boost the immune system

[myValkyrie]

Thanks for your replies guys - Scales of Justice, you have said what I was thinking & Puggles, you have voiced my biggest worry We live out of town, no close neighbours or other dogs - would that make not vaccinating him a bit safer? I have lost a dog to generalised, unresponsive demodex - I don't want to do anything that makes this little guys condition worse

[~Anne~]

Thanks for your replies guys - Scales of Justice, you have said what I was thinking & Puggles, you have voiced my biggest worry We live out of town, no close neighbours or other dogs - would that make not vaccinating him a bit safer? I have lost a dog to generalised, unresponsive demodex - I don't want to do anything that makes this little guys condition worse

You 'lost' a dog?? Huh> Do you mean one 'died' from demodex? If so, how?

[Scales of Justice]

What Puggles says does make sense. Nevertheless, if I were you I wouldn't vaccinate and I woudn't expose the puppy to any areas which are more likely to precipitate him picking up a virus. That is I would not take him anywhere where dogs collect ie. training, parks (especially off leash parks) or doggy areas.

Puggles, dogs can get demodex so badly that the upper layers of the skin crust over and the demodex move into the lower layers of the skin where it is impossible to eradicate. At this point their immune system is so compromised that recovery is impossible and the demodex becomes worse and worse and totally out of hand. When it gets that bad, vets recommend euthanasia.

Edited October 21, 2007 by Scales of Justice

[~Anne~]

What Puggles says does make sense. If I were you I wouldn't vaccinate and I woudn't expose the puppy to any areas which are more likely to precipitate him picking up a virus. That is I would not take him anywhere where dogs collect ie. training, parks (especially off leash parks) or doggy areas.

Puggles, dogs can get demodex so badly that the upper layers of the skin crust over and the demodex move into the lower layers of the skin where it is impossible to eradicate. At this point their immune system is so compromised that recovery is impossible and the demodex becomes worse and worse and totally out of hand. When it gets that bad, vets recommend euthanasia.

I have never heard of this. Not saying it isn't possible.... but I have never heard of this and I have come across a bit of demodex with rescue and as a veterinary nurse.

Demodex is as a result of the demodectic mite. Most dogs have demodectic mites on their skin. Mites only live in certain layers of the skin. Whilst it is related to low immunity it isn't a death sentence for a dog. Treating the mites with an insecticide, treating any bacterial infection with an anti-bacterial, treating infections with antibiotics and ensuring the dog is healthy and not under stress will clear it. I have never heard of a case that can't be cleared.

Here is Bubbles. She developed localised demodex at 6 weeks. A lack of timely diagnoses and owner compliance saw it reach this level by the time she came to me at 13 months. The second pic was taken approximately 6 weeks later. Almost 18 months later and this little girl looks even better then that. She had infected skin, stank to high hell and was a mess.

Edited October 21, 2007 by Puggles

[myValkyrie]

You 'lost' a dog?? Huh> Do you mean one 'died' from demodex? If so, how?

I mean that the mange did not respond to a variety of treatments & progressively worsened (over a period of months) to a point where the dog had no hair, uncontrollable secondary bacterial infection & skin with the resilience of tissue paper. My vet & I persevered with her to a point where her quality of life had deteriorated & her discomfort level was increasing to a point where it was cruel (mine & vet's opinion) to persist with treatment when there was no indication of recovery. I made the decision to euthanise her. To me, that means I "lost" her.

[~Anne~]

How sad for you. I am sorry to hear that. You must be fearing the worst then with this one understandably.

Little Bubbles, the girl in the pic, endured so much. Her whole life as she had known it was with the pain and discomfort of demodex. She had scabs all lover her, her skin was black, she stank and no-one had ever cuddled her because of her condition. She was dunped to live outside while another dog of the family lived inside.

Luckily for me, she was able to withstand the insecticide treatment. She was on so many lotions, potions and washes in the first few weeks it was incredible. She was on injections every three days as well. She endured baths (and this was on the middle of winter) where I had to leave her sit and shiver for 15 minutes with an antibacterial wash on her before I could rinse it off.

Now, she glows with health. her demodex has returned slightly once but her new owners took her to a specialist this time and it was under control within a week or two. There is every likelihood it will return again over her lifetime.

[~Anne~]

A footnote: Bubbles was apparently named Bubbles because when she was purchased as a puppy, she had 'bubbles' around her eyes... which was the beginning of the demodex.

Edited October 22, 2007 by Puggles

[myValkyrie]

How sad for you. I am sorry to hear that. You must be fearing the worst then with this one understandably.

Little Bubbles, the girl in the pic, endured so much. Her whole life as she had known it was with the pain and discomfort of demodex. She had scabs all lover her, her skin was black, she stank and no-one had ever cuddled her because of her condition. She was dunped to live outside while another dog of the family lived inside.

Luckily for me, she was able to withstand the insecticide treatment. She was on so many lotions, potions and washes in the first few weeks it was incredible. She was on injections every three days as well. She endured baths (and this was on the middle of winter) where I had to leave her sit and shiver for 15 minutes with an antibacterial wash on her before I could rinse it off.

Now, she glows with health. her demodex has returned slightly once but her new owners took her to a specialist this time and it was under control within a week or two. There is every likelihood it will return again over her lifetime.

Thanks for that Puggles - and yes, having had to battle it with Nikki for most of her short life has probably made me a bit overanxious with this little bloke. So glad that little Bubbles has bounced back after all she endured. I think most localised cases can be successfully resolved with some effort, time & TLC. Generalised demodex is a horrible, heartbreaking condition & if there is any chance that vaccination could possibly put my boy at risk (at present he just has the littles bumps round his eyes so hopefully we've caught it nice & early) then that makes my decision easier. Fingers crossed for an outcome like Bubbles

[~Anne~]

Bubbles had generlised (as you can see in the pic). It progressed from localised. Sorry but I wasn't sure if that was clear in my post.

Good luck with your little one. Perhaps call the vet and ask his advice re; the vaccination. Let us know how you go.

[myValkyrie]

Sorry Puggles - didn't realise she was generalised from the pic - you've done a great job getting her back. Rang my vet yesterday & she reckons to leave it for a week or so & see how we go - so fingers crossed, must say he looks better As an off shoot, what does your vet believe causes demodex? Just wondering as a few vets have had pretty different opinions

[~Anne~]

As an off shoot, what does your vet believe causes demodex? Just wondering as a few vets have had pretty different opinions

Low immunity which enables the mites to multiply to such numbers where they become a problem. He believes that, although there are several reasons for the low immunity issues and the suseptibility to this condition, it may be hereditary and linked to the mother. He advises anyone that has a bitch producing pups that develop localised or generalised demodex to have her desexed.

Obviously, a dog with immunity issues relating to other illnesses or just 'because' is not the same.

Once a dog has issues with demodex it is likely to recur all through it's life, particularly in times of stress, and in the elderly and in sickness when immunity is normally low.

[myValkyrie]

As an off shoot, what does your vet believe causes demodex? Just wondering as a few vets have had pretty different opinions

Low immunity which enables the mites to multiply to such numbers where they become a problem. He believes that, although there are several reasons for the low immunity issues and the suseptibility to this condition, it may be hereditary and linked to the mother. He advises anyone that has a bitch producing pups that develop localised or generalised demodex to have her desexed.

Obviously, a dog with immunity issues relating to other illnesses or just 'because' is not the same.

Once a dog has issues with demodex it is likely to recur all through it's life, particularly in times of stress, and in the elderly and in sickness when immunity is normally low.

That is what I think too - I believe the tendency to a suppressed immune system (which is what allows the mange to "take hold") is hereditary & would certainly not breed with an animal which had suffered an outbreak of demodex which required treatment.

[myValkyrie]

Sorry to drag up an old thread - but just wanted to give a quick update on Bose. He was treated for his demodex with Advocate & am really pleased with how well it has worked :D Would recommend giving it a go to anyone with a pup with localised demodex - only took 10 days to see a difference & now he is growing his hair back & his skin looks great. So relieved to have it under control :D He goes for his vaccination next week

[percyk]

My Valkyrie ..i have read with interest ur post and feel acutely for u

i cant advise...but thanks for posting..its these posts that really stimulate the learning...i do so hope u make the decision either way and all ends well

so sorry to hear of ur other dog being pts cos of mange

Puggles....wow ..what a story and must give heart to all...what a great job u have done with bubbles...and thanks for telling us about the 'bubbles' forming round the face...ive learned a lot!

had an aussie terrier with a skin condition ...but that was so many years ago as a young girl so i dont even remember what it was....so hard to treat..just kept coming back

[sandgrubber]

What Puggles says does make sense. If I were you I wouldn't vaccinate and I woudn't expose the puppy to any areas which are more likely to precipitate him picking up a virus. That is I would not take him anywhere where dogs collect ie. training, parks (especially off leash parks) or doggy areas.

Puggles, dogs can get demodex so badly that the upper layers of the skin crust over and the demodex move into the lower layers of the skin where it is impossible to eradicate. At this point their immune system is so compromised that recovery is impossible and the demodex becomes worse and worse and totally out of hand. When it gets that bad, vets recommend euthanasia.

I have never heard of this. Not saying it isn't possible.... but I have never heard of this and I have come across a bit of demodex with rescue and as a veterinary nurse.

It can be a horrid, persistent condition.

I have / or had, I haven't seen them for many months / a boarding kennel client from Karlgoolie who has spent $15k trying to clear dermo mange. She works part time to support her veterinary habit. Her dog is only two years old. He has a lovely temperament, but looks horrible. Scabby. Lots of hair loss. Has had associated digestive problems. Been to lots of vets. They give conflicting advise.

[~Anne~]

It can be a horrid, persistent condition.

Yes, I know it can be persistent. The query though was on the fact that it 'migrated' from upper layers of skin to layers further down. I have never heard of a demodectic mite burrowing down to a layer where it can not be eradicated.

Bad case of demodex, yes. A case that seems impossibe to control, maybe. Mites burrowing further down the epidermis layers of the skin... I am not certain of. ;)