Teaching Commands

[sidoney]

I also want to distinguish between theory and method.

Theory is a consistent set of statements that help people to understand and predict some real life phenomenon.

Method is what you use in order to bring the theory into the real world.

"Learning theory" is a set of concepts, that includes classical and operant conditioning. It is not perfect and does not cover all real life contingencies. However it has proven to be broadly useful to explain animal behaviours (although it can be deficient for human experience). It has also proven broadly useful as a basis on which to develop teaching methods.

Methods, for dogs, include clicker training, lure training, check chain training, the Koehler method, and so on. A method is some sort of an integrated system. A method is not a theory and may not explicitly include theory. However a method can normally be understood by using a valid theory to analyse its elements.

Then there are also random training events that crop up and may be managed in many different ways and with varying levels of consistency. I would not call this "method". In some instances the human may be aware that it is a training event, and in others, the human is not aware. This IMO would be the kind of training that most dogs receive.

[stumped]

Vickie, some of the best trainers l have known, probably would have had trouble reading some of the sentences in this thread, but they could read a dog. There are many sides to the story, but l think your original point was a good one and brought forward discussion, so its all good.

[sidoney]

And that can be the difference between a trainer and a teacher. I totally agree that being able to look at a dog and "read" it is a very important skill, as is a sense of timing, and a knowledge of what to do, probably without really having to think about it (as that would take too long). Some of the best trainers are horrible teachers because they do it all without thinking about it, and cannot communicate what they do. And some people who make bad trainers, because they are uncoordinated or whatever, can make great teachers because they have a deep understanding and can communicate it clearly.

Another theory I will mention that I have found useful for understanding dogs and training is the one that K9Force introduces at the start of his seminars. I don't know the name of it, or even if it has an actual name. That theory deals with something that learning theory, which derives from behaviourism, does not - and that is the emotional or arousal state of the dog.

Edited October 23, 2007 by sidoney

[4leggedvariety]

Vickie, as a matter of fact, the sheepdog people teach recall from sheep using what behavourist called'negative reinforecement'. Different people look at it from different angles. They call the dog's name & immediately follow it by pops on the collar towards them. The dog has no option but to come. Other people look at it from the 'drive' aspect, they call it switching drive, and the pop is to switch the dog from one drive to another ( may be in this case from prey to pack, correct me if I am wrong). They may not see that as negative as the dog is high in drive (focussed on sheep) and you want the dog to be focussed on you, the leader, for directions.

[Erny]

In addition to the above, I have seen the early training of dogs on sheep where the dog is stopped from working the sheep when it fails to comply with commands or mis-behaves towards the sheep.

Working the sheep in itself would be a HUGE reward to the dog. But it is taught that it can only do so if it complies with commands.

Negative Punishment applies in this instance. As well as Positive Reinforcement.

[sidoney]

I'm going to go back to Vickie's initial question a bit. If we break it down I think there are two key phrases. One is "without external rewards or punishments". We've discussed that fairly extensively and I think most of us agree that there is some kind of motivation there, although it may not be designed to be a motivation, or an obvious one.

I think the other one that deserves to be mentioned is "by habit". I'm going to take that to mean consistent repetition. IMO this is something that I've seen as lacking in some training. First, consistency, and secondly, repetition. Consistency, to me, means without variation. Repetition means as many times as is needed. If the context is set up that a particular response is initiated in the dog, and that the response is successfully repeated many times, then IMO that is effective.

Another question she asks is what dogs would you do this with, or not. IMO the dog that you can do training with, without having extra (say food or toy) rewards, is one that is highly "pack driven". An alternative might be that it is in a context where to do the behaviour itself is self rewarding, and you can control whether the dog can self reward or not. Although this itself may rely on previously trained behaviours, e.g. if the dog is going to be prevented from self rewarding at inopportune times, it may need to have a reliable stop or recall, so that you can control its access to the behaviour.

Are the behaviours more dependable? It may be that the behaviour is simpler, or it may be one that is required more often. It may be one where there is a smaller acceptable range of behaviour (e.g. either the dog goes in the crate, or it does not).

Varying reinforcement rates and values gets into an area where a person needs to have an understanding of theory and of method. If it's done effectively, it is very dependable. IMO a problem (as I have seen it in action) is not so much the reinforcement itself, but establishing and maintaining very black-and-white criteria. When the criteria get more vague, the dog firstly gets uncertain, which slows behaviour, and also it has to think more (is it this? or this?) which also slows behaviour. The more clear-cut the criteria, the less the dog thinks in response to the cue, and the more quickly and confidently it can act. (And cues need also to be clear-cut.)

This idea of criteria keys into the phrase "by habit". If there are no clear criteria, then the dog cannot form a habit.

Edited October 23, 2007 by sidoney