Pig-headed Poodle

[poodlemum]

HI. - I have an 11 month old Standard Poodle Bitch (and I DO mean bitch!). We have been doing obedience training for about 6 months now - she does reasonable well, apart from not dropping sometime. When we do a recall in class she's always comes to me. However, when I let her out in the morning she takes off (I am on 5 acres) and NOTHING will get her to come back till she's good & ready. I have tried bribing her, catching & punishing her, nothing works. Has anyone else had this problem & how did they solve it - all suggestions gratefully received.

Edited October 20, 2007 by poodlemum

[SkySoaringMagpie]

HI. - I have an 11 month old Standard Poodle Bitch (and I DO mean bitch!). We have been doing obedience training for about 6 months now - she does reasonable well, apart from not dropping sometime. When we do a recall in class she's always comes to me. However, when I let her out in the morning she takes off (I am on 5 acres) and NOTHING will get her to come back till she's good & ready. I have tried bribing her, catching & punishing her, nothing works. Has anyone else had this problem & how did they solve it - all suggestions gratefully received.

Catching and punishing and bribing are both things that will have put you back. The bribing lets her choose whether the yard is more interesting than your bribe, and the punishing when catching says to her that going back to Mum is a risky business.

I have had success with this approach on our Salukis and Afghan (and most people agree they can be bastards to get back):

I started by rewarding them when they came into the house of their own accord. I ignored them when they were out in the yard, and when they came in I had a treat jar behind one of the doors in the pantry and I talked to them like they were the cleverest dogs in the world for coming inside and gave them a treat well inside in the house.

Then I starting calling the ones who are the most biddable, when they came in I talked to them like they were terribly clever and smart, and gave them a super nice treat (we usually have little boxes of chicken or sausage in the fridge). The others wandered in to see what happened, and everyone soon got the message that there was a party going on and there were conditions on the invitation. I also do a lot of "recall and release" so that they don't associate recalling with "fun is over"

I am not superwoman, and occasionally they don't respond. I go out and get them when that happens - without making it a game. If we can't get them without it being a game, the door is shut for a pre-determined period of time and they stay out. We decide when they come back in.

These days they are pretty reliable tho'.

[poodlemum]

I never punish her if she eventually comes back when I call - only if I have to chase & catch her- I certainly don't want her to assocaite coming back with punishment! I have also tried the call back & release - she is just SO stubborn.

[Tonymc]

Poodle,would you run up to somebody if they gave you a clip under the ear everytime?Of course not as you would soon figure its not safe to be around that person.You would build a negative link to the person.A dog is the same.See it from the Dogs point of view."This Person is calling me, but if I go to them I am unsure what will happen!!!"

You need to stop punishing the Dog for not coming firstly.You need to build pack bond with the Dog and also build an attraction within the Dog to you.

This Dog has a certain amount of resistance built up due to experience that you will have to dissipate or overcome.I would go back to a small area put the Dog on a long lead.Now what motivates this Dog?Food or a Ball or Toy?I would call the Dog and if she does not respond give a correction on the lead.Its best with the correction if possible to dissasociate yourself from it.When she does come to you,make a fuss of her and reward her by allowing her to interact with whatever motivates her.Example if food give a Treat,if a ball throw it for her.

Also work on letting her catch you.Have a game with her where you jump up and down,zig zag around,make funny noises and run away from her.Attract her to you and make her want to catch you.

When she is coming to you, do not lunge or grab at her when close as that is counter productive.

Ironically the more freedom you give this Dog the better she will come back.How does that work?What I mean is practise getting her to come to you,reward her then release her again then a short while later call her again,reward her and release again.The dog learns by doing this that just because she comes to you,it does not mean all her fun is over. tony

[4 Paws]

I've taught my gsd's to come to a dog whistle which would be good a large block of land like you have.They respond straight away and i give a treat as soon as they get to the back door.They seem to respond quicker to the whistle than calling there name and a 'come' command

[poodlemum]

Whoa!! some of you have got the wrong idea as to what I was saying - I have been obedience training dogs for 15 years, so I know that you DON"T punish a dog who comes back to you (no matter how p***ed off you are). Sometimes I can "stalk" my dog & catch her without calling her - then I tell her off & smack her for not coming back when called. If she DOES come back when I call her, even if it's the tenth time, she gets a reward (treat or cuddle) She is a very affectionate girl & very loving to me, not scared at all, just wants to do what she wants to do! It may just be a hereditary thing, her Great-Grandfather was exactly the same, pig-headed ,exasperating and totally lovable.

[cavNrott]

Whoa!! some of you have got the wrong idea as to what I was saying - I have been obedience training dogs for 15 years, so I know that you DON"T punish a dog who comes back to you (no matter how p***ed off you are). Sometimes I can "stalk" my dog & catch her without calling her - then I tell her off & smack her for not coming back when called. If she DOES come back when I call her, even if it's the tenth time, she gets a reward (treat or cuddle) She is a very affectionate girl & very loving to me, not scared at all, just wants to do what she wants to do! It may just be a hereditary thing, her Great-Grandfather was exactly the same, pig-headed ,exasperating and totally lovable.

The part of your quote I have bolded has me confused. You stalk and catch her without calling herand then smack her for not coming when called. How so? You said you didn't call her. If you mean you called her before the stalking and catching, why are you smacking her after the event?

Since you've been obedience training for 15 years you should surely know how futile it is to correct, (or in the case of smacking, to punish) a dog after the event. In fact I'm surprised you would think smacking a dog is being fair. She's actually being smacked because you managed to get near enough to catch her, not because she didn't recall so maybe she's apprehensive.

Smacking a dog plays no part in obedience training. It's simply a sign of owner frustration and teaches the dog nothing other than the owner is not to be trusted. Perhaps that's why she doesn't always come back to you...maybe she's not sure whether or not you'll smack her.

I suggest using a horse lunge lead or some type of long line and calling the dog to you. If she's reluctanct to come you can reel her in. At least that way she won't be able to run away from you and you'll have no need to smack her.

[poodlemum]

Whoa!! some of you have got the wrong idea as to what I was saying - I have been obedience training dogs for 15 years, so I know that you DON"T punish a dog who comes back to you (no matter how p***ed off you are). Sometimes I can "stalk" my dog & catch her without calling her - then I tell her off & smack her for not coming back when called. If she DOES come back when I call her, even if it's the tenth time, she gets a reward (treat or cuddle) She is a very affectionate girl & very loving to me, not scared at all, just wants to do what she wants to do! It may just be a hereditary thing, her Great-Grandfather was exactly the same, pig-headed ,exasperating and totally lovable.

The part of your quote I have bolded has me confused. You stalk and catch her without calling herand then smack her for not coming when called. How so? You said you didn't call her. If you mean you called her before the stalking and catching, why are you smacking her after the event?

Since you've been obedience training for 15 years you should surely know how futile it is to correct, (or in the case of smacking, to punish) a dog after the event. In fact I'm surprised you would think smacking a dog is being fair. She's actually being smacked because you managed to get near enough to catch her, not because she didn't recall so maybe she's apprehensive.

Smacking a dog plays no part in obedience training. It's simply a sign of owner frustration and teaches the dog nothing other than the owner is not to be trusted. Perhaps that's why she doesn't always come back to you...maybe she's not sure whether or not you'll smack her.

I suggest using a horse lunge lead or some type of long line and calling the dog to you. If she's reluctanct to come you can reel her in. At least that way she won't be able to run away from you and you'll have no need to smack her.

Doesn't matter what I say - I'm going to be in the wrong!!

[poodlemum]

Whoa!! some of you have got the wrong idea as to what I was saying - I have been obedience training dogs for 15 years, so I know that you DON"T punish a dog who comes back to you (no matter how p***ed off you are). Sometimes I can "stalk" my dog & catch her without calling her - then I tell her off & smack her for not coming back when called. If she DOES come back when I call her, even if it's the tenth time, she gets a reward (treat or cuddle) She is a very affectionate girl & very loving to me, not scared at all, just wants to do what she wants to do! It may just be a hereditary thing, her Great-Grandfather was exactly the same, pig-headed ,exasperating and totally lovable.

The part of your quote I have bolded has me confused. You stalk and catch her without calling herand then smack her for not coming when called. How so? You said you didn't call her. If you mean you called her before the stalking and catching, why are you smacking her after the event?

Since you've been obedience training for 15 years you should surely know how futile it is to correct, (or in the case of smacking, to punish) a dog after the event. In fact I'm surprised you would think smacking a dog is being fair. She's actually being smacked because you managed to get near enough to catch her, not because she didn't recall so maybe she's apprehensive.

Smacking a dog plays no part in obedience training. It's simply a sign of owner frustration and teaches the dog nothing other than the owner is not to be trusted. Perhaps that's why she doesn't always come back to you...maybe she's not sure whether or not you'll smack her.

I suggest using a horse lunge lead or some type of long line and calling the dog to you. If she's reluctanct to come you can reel her in. At least that way she won't be able to run away from you and you'll have no need to smack her.

Doesn't matter what I say - I'm going to be in the wrong!!

Was hoping I'd get helpful advice - not abuse!

[cavNrott]

Was hoping I'd get helpful advice - not abuse!

You weren't abused :D Your first post is contradictory.

I disagree with smacking dogs and I don't consider smacking to be obedience training.

If you only wanted replies that tell you what a good idea it is to smack a dog when you're not in a position to correct it at the time of the wrong doing then you should perhaps have said so. I suggest most people think that to correct a dog you need to catch it in the act.

The advice I DID give was to get a horse lunge lead. You must have missed that part.

[Rusky]

you got excellent advise from everyone

Sometimes I can "stalk" my dog & catch her without calling her - then I tell her off & smack her for not coming back when called.

but you aren't listening

[huski]

Whoa!! some of you have got the wrong idea as to what I was saying - I have been obedience training dogs for 15 years, so I know that you DON"T punish a dog who comes back to you (no matter how p***ed off you are). Sometimes I can "stalk" my dog & catch her without calling her - then I tell her off & smack her for not coming back when called. If she DOES come back when I call her, even if it's the tenth time, she gets a reward (treat or cuddle) She is a very affectionate girl & very loving to me, not scared at all, just wants to do what she wants to do! It may just be a hereditary thing, her Great-Grandfather was exactly the same, pig-headed ,exasperating and totally lovable.

The part of your quote I have bolded has me confused. You stalk and catch her without calling herand then smack her for not coming when called. How so? You said you didn't call her. If you mean you called her before the stalking and catching, why are you smacking her after the event?

I second CavNrott - can you please explain the above bolded quote? No abuse - I just don't undestand what you are doing here.

[Mystiqview]

I am on acerage and used to hava husky here at one time... Huskies are not always known for their recalls..

While around the property (usual stock fencing on most of it) Miko Snr used to have a 20 metre lunge lead attached to her collar that she used to drag around..(supervised of course).. It would get snagged on things..

We also used to carry food in our pocket all the time and regularly get her to come back and treat her. So EVERY TIME she came to us... was positive and rewarded with food..

Never did fully trust her out in the paddocks.. but you could keep her close. She had rare auto immune disorder and died at 3 years.. But before that.. I had her started in open obedience competitions, we had her off lead doing obedience demonstrations at the Brisbane Pet Expo and Brisbane Royal Show.

Patience.. Patience.. Patience.. Huskies can be quite stubbon too.

[persephone]

Poodlemum, i can understand..

My Hamlet is another whose ears don't work while the legs ARE!! :D

He is a guts, so , PROVIDING there is nothing chase-able, he will come back. I basically walkk him on a loooong lead most of the time now..

The advice given, to make yourself more interesting than the surroundings is good!

What does she do to not listen to you?

Is she sniffing,chasing,rolling,or just running?

I would suggest that whatever it is that she wants to do...provide it, but from YOU!!

Have smellier, tastier treats...a better noisier toy, etc.

Is there any way of putting up a fence so she has a smaller area to be in at times?

May I also suggest the TOT ...(pinned in this forum)? That MAY get her to see you as the sole provider of good things, and 'she who should be listened to"

best of luck!

[Tonymc]

Poodlemum,if you having to stalk this Dog,there is a problem. Tony

[percyk]

i was always under the impression that if u cant get them to come back...then dont call em

ie

if theyre not responding to ur call then just go get them

i have always worked on that principle...the ' no fail ' option ...

it works with everything really i suppose

if the dog doesnt sit..u make him

u dont give up..otherwise the command is lost...every time u speak there should be an outcome...or a at least progress

so if one of our younguns is not sitting at the kerb ...the kids make sure they get the dog to sit...never let them get away with it even if the traffic is clear...we all wait and do the command again and place them in a sit

with 'come' its different in that u havent got the control over the dog when hes off and running so if ur serious maybe u will have to have in on a long leash for a long time

this does work

i had a boofy cocker boy one time...he never settled...so wed tether him and place him in his basket near the door..we did this for months...give him a pigs ear or whatever and insist on him getting back to his spot when he started the crawl to be closer to us lol

never really believed that hed not get up to wander

one time months later...i got the rope out to tether him and lo and behold he just went to the basket cos i suppose he just believed

that he was tied up and couldnt roam anyway!

...it started to work ..it took so long...but suddenly he got it and began to settle well inside

so i guess the 'come' command has to have a very good chance of being responded to correctly the first time if its going to be learned effectively

i have one dog...hes used to the long retractable lead and no longer lunges at the end..hes seems to know how far he can go before he runs out

i have started letting him off just to see how hes going and to my absolute delight he has come every time ( ive tried about20 times now)...what a feeling!!! but at first i was only asking him to come when he was attached to the retractable and id pull him if necessary and then reward and praise and carry on

i have a well trained bitch who is the pack leader and it has helped a lot because she will get the others to come...i have seen some attach pups to biddable dogs and teach this way too..dont know what others have to say about this method

its a hard task this 'coming' thing for some breeeds..but if i have had some considerable success with my rogue...im sure anyone can!!!!!!!!!!!

good luck and keep posting

[Working_Setters]

HI. - I have an 11 month old Standard Poodle Bitch (and I DO mean bitch!). We have been doing obedience training for about 6 months now - she does reasonable well, apart from not dropping sometime. When we do a recall in class she's always comes to me. However, when I let her out in the morning she takes off (I am on 5 acres) and NOTHING will get her to come back till she's good & ready. I have tried bribing her, catching & punishing her, nothing works. Has anyone else had this problem & how did they solve it - all suggestions gratefully received.

PM you've certainly made things more difficult for yourself by allowing things to get this bad. Your dog has learnt that recall is optional and that's a serious problem. The more you call the dog and the dog ignores the "command" the more damage is being done. As you (and many others) have discovered, there's a big difference b/t recalls in the Ob ring and recalls in the real world. IMO you are trying to move from a low distraction environment (Ob ring) recall, to a high distraction environment (5 acres) far too quickly. You need to do a lot more successful recalls in a medium distraction environment first.

IMO you need to regain control of this situation. Clearly you're not able to control the dog when she's loose in the 5 acres, so don't let her loose in the 5 acres, at least not for training. If you want to give her exercise, fine let her loose on the 5 acres, BUT NEVER give recall command, you can only let her loose for exercise when you have enough time to wait for her to run around and get tired so she comes back on her own, then you reward her with water etc.

For training you need initially need a far more controlled environment. Are you able to fence off a smaller sub-section of the 5 acres? If not then you'll need to find somewhere else to train initially. You need to very gradually build on the recall success you have at Ob class, but this is VERY gradual, always setting your dog up for success. You need to build the habit of recalling, first time, every time you call. I understand what you're saying about punishing the dog for not recalling, and I do this also, but you try to keep this punishment to a minimum. You want 99% successful recalls and praise and 1% unsuccessful recalls and punishment. I'm quite a simple, old fashioned trainer, but I don't know anybody who has a truly reliable recall without that 1% punishment.

So you need to regain control of you dog. I prefer to do this by working in enclosed (fenced) environment, but you can also do it by working the dog on a check cord (long line). You need to start out gradually, recalling only when you are sure the dog will come and rewarding that success. If dog doesn't recall you want to be able to very quickly catch dog and enforce recall, that's why you’re in the enclosed environment (or using the long line). Timing of recall is very important, wait for that second when your dog stops what it's doing and looks up at you, in that second recall loudly and enthusiastically. Do this over and over, build the habit of prompt recalls. When you dog recalls, treat and release. Coming to you is a pleasure, not a punishment. Recall, treat and release, over and over. Recalling and clipping the dog on the lead every time will kill recall fast. Never recall when you think dog wont obey, wait until dog is less distracted, then call. You are TRAINING, not TESTING, training is about 99% success and reward.

Some other thoughts:

I've not seen you and your dog, so I can't tell from here, but you may want to consider changing to a different command for recall since the one you're currently using has been desensitised and is no longer a "command" (something which must be obeyed) in the eyes of your dog. I find a whistle works far better human voice.

Do you need to bond more strongly with your dog? If the dog is not looking to you regularly, regularly providing those "recallable moments" then maybe you need to strengthen you bond with the dog and your position as pack leader. NILF and TIT (both pined at the top of this forum) are excellent techniques that you may benefit from.

My absolute, 100% must be obeyed command is sit. I work with my dogs until I can sit them anywhere any time. Once sitting it is easy to recall, else leave sitting and go to dog. This approach is subtlety different to straight out recall and initial stages of training can be done indoors, on lead etc. Situations where you have control.

There will still be those times (hopefully very much in the minority) when your dog will test you and ignore recall. In those instances you need to be able to very quickly catch the dog and enforce command. Remember this BEFORE you give recall command, if dog chooses to ignore, will you be able to quickly catch dog and re-enforce command? If not, why are you training in this area?

Recall train in a controlled environment. Exercise your dog in the full 5 acres, but understand that at the moment you don't have control out there and hence will have to wait until dog is ready to come back before giving recall.

Much has been written about recall training in previous thread in this training forum. You might benefit from reading some of those.

[Dogs4Fun]

Some really good advice here.

Obedience recalls are a different exercise to free running recalls. It is important to use a different command.

Never call your dog if you don't think she will respond. This builds up a history of her successfully ignoring you and continuing on with more rewarding behaviours.

Use a long line to train a free running recall adding distrations and distance from you with time. Make the reward for coming in huge: it has to be more valuable to the dog than whatever they were doing (eating possum poo etc). So play with a highly valued toy for a few minutes etc rather than justs a crummy dog treat (she can probably earn one of those for far less effort).

[4leggedvariety]

Working setters has given some very useful advise. You need to control the environment to start off with. Have realistic expectations as to the level of distractions your poodle can handle. I must say the recall is easy to teach, hard to perfect. If you have access to smaller fenced off areas (like some off leash dog parks when it is not too busy). take her there, either long lead or get up close and personal before you call her. Pick the moment that you think you will be successful and call her. If she comes, reward & release. If she doesn't, hopefully you are not that far away from her that you can walk up & show her you mean business (keep your cool though). If she is on a long lead, then pick it up from the ground & pop her towards you. You have to repeat that many many many times with increasing level of difficulty.

I have found the obedience recalls too far fetched from normal everyday life. Dogs don't generalise from that to recalls while it is running, playing with other dogs, from sniffing etc etc etc. You do have to practice in everyday situations. I have also found a good recall is somewhat tied to good leadership. Respect from the dog is needed before the dog will pay attention to you, especially in distracting situations. When we think about it, dogs will do things that benefit them, for them to come back and ignore distractions, they have to know that you mean business and the act of coming back brings positive results, and vice versa.