bridgie_cat Posted October 17, 2007 Share Posted October 17, 2007 Heya! Interesting question... has anyone ever tried clicker training an outgoing response to strangers? I ask because I have been helping to socialise a shy little pup that my friend has and we offer him food so he comes to us - he is fed as other people touch him etc - more of an extinguishing process than training him to like being touched and the food offering seems to be teaching him to come to people with food... not so much just to people. I thought it would be interesting to try and teach him to visit new people using the clicker! (he is already doing a lot with the clicker and is well versed with its meaning) My basic plan was to sit/stand/whatever near a person he is not overly familiar with (not a total stranger to begin with - just not one of his friends!) and click for him looking at them, move to click for an approach, click for touching, click for extended touch, click for letting them touch him?? essentially... although not sure if it would be better/easier doing a hand target to a stranger - ie they hold out hand as if going for a pat and he puts his head there! This leads to dif people, dif body positions etc... perhaps could even clicker for him nudging with head to try and fix his sensitivities about people touching the top of his head?? (yes - this is a fairly common dislike and justified - but the reaction could be lessened through training...) One question - would it then be best to have him run back to me/his owner for food OR do you have the stranger present the food so he is fed in position?? (equally im not sure if I want him to know they have food so it becomes a bribe...) Has anyone tried something similar to this? Even if you havent, any keen clicker trainers - what do you see as pros and cons of this idea? And of course any ammendments to the system etc - really just a rough idea at the moment! Bridget Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helen Posted October 17, 2007 Share Posted October 17, 2007 Tilly is very wary of people she doesn't know and will back away if they go to pat her over the head, she is Ok if they pat her chest. She improved a lot with people just feeding her, no clicker but it was always her choice to approach the person. I have just started obedience lessons with her and am finding she will back off when the instructor comes to do a stand for examination, even though she will stand like a statue in the show ring so I will probably use a clicker to teach stand for examination, splitting the excerise also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted October 17, 2007 Share Posted October 17, 2007 I think it would work. I tried a little of it on my girl at home, with excellent results. If the clicker is conditioned appropriately it has connected to it a particular 'feeling' - one that would be positive etc with all the food associated with it. So pairing that 'feeling' and recognising that the clicks come with meeting new people I would think you would have success. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ptolomy Posted October 17, 2007 Share Posted October 17, 2007 Tilly is very wary of people she doesn't know and will back away if they go to pat her over the head, she is Ok if they pat her chest. She improved a lot with people just feeding her, no clicker but it was always her choice to approach the person.I have just started obedience lessons with her and am finding she will back off when the instructor comes to do a stand for examination, even though she will stand like a statue in the show ring so I will probably use a clicker to teach stand for examination, splitting the excerise also. Good luck Helen. My 2 year old duck dog had personal space issues whenever any body walked up to her - including me, she would back away. Its been a lot of hard work - with me standing her and walking up to her and clicking and treating without even laying a hand on her - then I would have other people doing it and I would click and treat. Then we standing the one pat and walk away and C/T. The big break through came when somebody patted her and while they were patting her I said Jackpot and rewarded her bigtime - now when we do a SFE she stands there looking at me waiting for the "Jackpot". Sometimes it comes while the person it patting her - other times its when they have finished and other times when I return to her. I have got her in the show ring as I thought this would help - but most show judges are impatient and insist on picking up their feet and moving their legs which is no help to a dog like this at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridgie_cat Posted October 18, 2007 Author Share Posted October 18, 2007 so what do people think on the specifics - in particular, who should have the food? I can see benefits/problems with both... perhaps swapping between the two in different training sessions (I say dif sessions because I think in one sess would be too confusing)... am I missing any negatives with this training?? is it going to backfire at some point? The thing I can think of as a possibility is a dog that is TOO keen about running up to people - as this would be the shaped behaviour... thus could end up running up to every stranger and tapping them to see if they get a treat... just like they get keen and randomly take agility equip to see what you might want... but perhaps not as big a risk with a very shy dog. LP - what behaviour are you focussing on with your girl? ie just close - or a hand targer - any interaction?? what are you aiming for? Bridget Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helen Posted October 18, 2007 Share Posted October 18, 2007 Good luck Helen. My 2 year old duck dog had personal space issues whenever any body walked up to her - including me, she would back away. Its been a lot of hard work - with me standing her and walking up to her and clicking and treating without even laying a hand on her - then I would have other people doing it and I would click and treat. Then we standing the one pat and walk away and C/T. The big break through came when somebody patted her and while they were patting her I said Jackpot and rewarded her bigtime - now when we do a SFE she stands there looking at me waiting for the "Jackpot". Sometimes it comes while the person it patting her - other times its when they have finished and other times when I return to her.I have got her in the show ring as I thought this would help - but most show judges are impatient and insist on picking up their feet and moving their legs which is no help to a dog like this at all. Thanks for the info Ptolomy she does sound like your dog, will be lots of help. Luckily she is very good in the showring and stands like a statue so I have even been thinking of maybe gradually turning a show stack into a stand for examination too, what doe you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helen Posted October 18, 2007 Share Posted October 18, 2007 .........am I missing any negatives with this training?? is it going to backfire at some point? The thing I can think of as a possibility is a dog that is TOO keen about running up to people - as this would be the shaped behaviour... thus could end up running up to every stranger and tapping them to see if they get a treat... just like they get keen and randomly take agility equip to see what you might want... but perhaps not as big a risk with a very shy dog. ......... Bridget I was considering this too but I figure with some dogs you need to get them happy with people before you can get them to stand still for people. Outgoing dogs want to approach people while doing stand for examination too and are taught not to so I reckon it is worth the risk and additional work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted October 18, 2007 Share Posted October 18, 2007 (edited) LP - what behaviour are you focussing on with your girl? ie just close - or a hand targer - any interaction?? what are you aiming for? Basically I was doing it the fist couple of weeks she came to stay with us as she was a little unsettled.... now I have to fend her off the visitors as she tends to plaster herself on them I would basically C&T any 'positive' interaction with the visitor - ie: no slinking, barking, growling or anything I don't want. I would C&T her 'looking' at the visitor and reward myself as well as C&T any forward, confident movement toward a stranger. I'd also give the stranger food to feed her with and she might get a double whammy -so food from them and a C&T from me while she is saying hello . Initially I would only bring her in when the visitors were seated, then to when they first arrived..... Seemed to work well here am I missing any negatives with this training?? is it going to backfire at some point? The thing I can think of as a possibility is a dog that is TOO keen about running up to people - as this would be the shaped behaviour... thus could end up running up to every stranger and tapping them to see if they get a treat... just like they get keen and randomly take agility equip to see what you might want... but perhaps not as big a risk with a very shy dog. Would this seriously be a problem for you though?! If you ever got to this point, give yourself a pat on the back for bringing out such confidence in your dog!! Then I would go about refining the training such as 'asking' permission before she goes up to say hello etc . Personally I think a dog TOO keen to meet people is easier to train/ handle than a dog that won't go near people Edited October 18, 2007 by leopuppy04 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridgie_cat Posted October 19, 2007 Author Share Posted October 19, 2007 Would this seriously be a problem for you though?! If you ever got to this point, give yourself a pat on the back for bringing out such confidence in your dog!! Then I would go about refining the training such as 'asking' permission before she goes up to say hello etc . Personally I think a dog TOO keen to meet people is easier to train/ handle than a dog that won't go near people you are quite right. I would love for one of my dogs to get to this point - and then it would be a matter of training control - which has to be trained anyway ... just tossing around potential probs - as it is not my dog I would hate to train something that will give issues later on! Although, in reality, the dog is very unlikely to get so confident that it is an issue... I like the idea of food coming from everywhere - never knowing = less of a "bribe" to go to the stranger - but perhaps will be less likely to cause the tap and quick turn back to owner as seen in most targeting exercises... leaves potential for a delay with the stranger as they decide if they have the food for them etc... Good thought on WHEN she can say hi also! I didnt even consider this! Great idea though as I have dogs that go NUTS when people arrive - if trained to say hi calmly first (ie after arrival when sitting down) and then move to more exciting stimulus, could avoid this perhaps! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted October 19, 2007 Share Posted October 19, 2007 Another thought BC - I also worked with a dog that was fear aggressive to people as part of my dog training course. This person was referred to me from my vet. The dog wouldn't stop barking at strangers and if pushed enough would bite them. I found a brilliant way to get her confidence up and trust in strangers was for the stranger to *avoid eye contact *throw food in her direction (obviously not aiming at the dog!). As the dog became more confident, the throws would become shorter and shorter until the dog was taking from the person's hand. If the dog is not taking food - it is obviously too stressed, and a step back needs to be taken - perhaps with the owner C&T calm behaviour (watching the owner even) with the 'stranger' in presence. All it does it reinforce that strangers = good things for the dog. This dog came up in leaps and bounds - partly because the owner was more confident in the dog also I believe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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