What's Wrong With My "cocker" ?

[chloebear]

I am amazed that this thread is still going, considering we are never going to know the outcome.......just hope it all ends well.

Why do you think we'll never know the outcome?

I was just saying the above in response to a previous post that Frank put up in relation to not using this thread any more. Personally I am happy that all is going well and to hear from Frank :rolleyes:

[Poodle wrangler]

well so far the family is happy. i'm happy, the dog is happy, and the rabbit is happy.

i have learnt alot about cocker hereditory charactoristics . and have had a lot of pms from great people offering help. advice and sympathetic ears.

if you stir up a cocker . or dont accept it's charactor. you can be fooled into thinking a dog is a dog. breeds are differant . and need to be respected in differant ways . we are learning to live accordingly.

on a side note . last week bailey bit me . i was changing the oil of my mower, in the garage . i drained the dirty black oil, into a bucket, and put a rag in the bucket of black oil also , when i turned my back . bailey pulled the rag out . and started running around the garage . with the oil soaked rag in his mouth, dripping it all over the garage floor . right next to our 60k GT FALCON . after a quick panic and chase . i grabbed him and picked him up . scorning him . he turned around and bit me . breaking the skin on my hand . after thinking for a bit . i put my hand in front of his snout . he smelt my blood and started shaking . with his tail between his legs . i ignored him for the rest of the night. even though i continued working . he sat next to me . unsure of his approval. but he has been fine since. dont know if it was a learning curve for him .

i guess i've just ensured many many more replies to this thread now.

The dog has bitten it's owner now.

For a dog to bite it's owner, deliberately- you must realise that this is BAD news :rolleyes: . Totally unacceptable. If he will bite you, he will bite anyone. Though you did antagonise the dog.

It's not a good idea to grab a dog, pick them up and "scorn them". It's bullying, not training, not leadership.

What are you going to do now?

[poodlefan]

How on earth do you "scorn" a dog?? Say rude things about his breeding. :rolleyes:

Frank do you know anything about canine fear and the "fight or flight" response to it? My guess is you scared the shit out of this dog and by grabbing him removed his chance to get away from you. He defended himself in the only way you left open to him. YOU provoked this. Be thankful he has good bite inhibition. I know a person who got in the way of Cocker teeth breaking up a dog fight. He needed microsurgery to repair his hand.

Please reflect on the kind of relationship you are building with your dog.. he's now at the stage where you've pushed him to defend himself. First bite.. and if you keep going like this, there WILL be more. Not a whole lot of trust in you is there.

Next time, keep the dog out of the garage OK? One ounce of prevention. I'd personally have been more worried about him ingesting oil than getting it on the Falcon but there you go. He'd have had no idea why you were ignoring him within minutes of the incident.

Please, please please see K9Force ASAP. Despite anything you've been told about the way your dog behaves, it's not his breed that is the primary determinant of his behaviour but his temperament and his upbringing. Consider for a moment the lessons you are teaching this dog. He's just learned to fear you to the point of self defence.

Honestly Frank, I really don't see this ending happily for your or the dog unless you get some professional help SOON.

Edited October 24, 2007 by poodlefan

[frank]

well so far the family is happy. i'm happy, the dog is happy, and the rabbit is happy.

i have learnt alot about cocker hereditory charactoristics . and have had a lot of pms from great people offering help. advice and sympathetic ears.

if you stir up a cocker . or dont accept it's charactor. you can be fooled into thinking a dog is a dog. breeds are differant . and need to be respected in differant ways . we are learning to live accordingly.

on a side note . last week bailey bit me . i was changing the oil of my mower, in the garage . i drained the dirty black oil, into a bucket, and put a rag in the bucket of black oil also , when i turned my back . bailey pulled the rag out . and started running around the garage . with the oil soaked rag in his mouth, dripping it all over the garage floor . right next to our 60k GT FALCON . after a quick panic and chase . i grabbed him and picked him up . scorning him . he turned around and bit me . breaking the skin on my hand . after thinking for a bit . i put my hand in front of his snout . he smelt my blood and started shaking . with his tail between his legs . i ignored him for the rest of the night. even though i continued working . he sat next to me . unsure of his approval. but he has been fine since. dont know if it was a learning curve for him .

i guess i've just ensured many many more replies to this thread now.

The dog has bitten it's owner now.

For a dog to bite it's owner, deliberately- you must realise that this is BAD news :rolleyes: . Totally unacceptable. If he will bite you, he will bite anyone. Though you did antagonise the dog.

It's not a good idea to grab a dog, pick them up and "scorn them". It's bullying, not training, not leadership.

What are you going to do now?

I'M GETTING TO KNOW THE DOG . I REALISE IT WAS MY FAULT. .

I WILL NOT INTIMIDATE THE DOG IN THAT WAY . I BELIEVE PROGRESS is being made. . of course i would exect this not to continue . but i'm pretty sure . if he is attacked he will bite in self defence . involuntarily. not attack .

i will spend more time training . if i was to play tug of war with him and touch him with other hand . he will snap. . of course if i see a savage trait. i will definately seek help.

he isnt showing signs of nervousness. or fear. i think it is more . breed temperament . than bad training, or the nature of the dog .

if anyone disagrees please let me know .

i have seen a similar type attitude with kaywoman 68 's cocker videos .

[poodlefan]

Frank:

i will spend more time training . if i was to play tug of war with him and touch him with other hand . he will snap. . of course if i see a savage trait. i will definately seek help.

he isnt showing signs of nervousness. or fear. i think it is more . breed temperament . than bad training, or the nature of the dog .

if anyone disagrees please let me know .

i have seen a similar type attitude with kaywoman 68 's cocker videos .

Frank, the first thing you should know about behavioural issues is

1. They are not breed specific

2. They will not be overcome by training unless a professionally developed behaviour modification program is involved.

You could be describing a startle response or resource guarding. Only a qualified professional who sees your dog in person will know for sure.

[persephone]

Oh, Frank.... :rolleyes:

...and started shaking . with his tail between his legs .

if i was to play tug of war with him and touch him with other hand . he will snap.

but i'm pretty sure . if he is attacked he will bite in self defence . involuntarily

.

he isnt showing signs of nervousness. or fear.

YES HE IS, Frank, and this point is where you would really benefit from the ADVICE of a behaviourist.

A behaviourist is not about 'military precision' obedience moves,or anything like that...but they do have a wealth of wisdom of different dog breeds, ages and problems.

They can provide YOU with the 'tools' needed to HELP Bailey and your family.

Frank...many years ago, I had a fear-biter.

I was at that time training dogs, and was lucky enough to have the support and help of some very wise people.

Altho my boy was adult...we were able to manage it..not 'cure'..but he was fine for the 10 or so years I had him, with supervision he was fine with children, and lived a very full social life.

BUT, it took a LOT of very gentle and consistent work/education, and the combined knoweledge of quite a few people to achieve this.

You are using what you see as approppriate tools/skills, and while they may appear to work..it's a bit like fixing a hole in the muffler with blu-tack.....once it gets a bit hot..the blu-tak will melt and there will stilll be a hole

A mechanic with the learning and skills can PERMANENTLY repair the problem

Put your trust in some-one else's hands, and make some permanent and good repairs to bailey's relationship with the family.

[cavNrott]

Frank for chrisakes contact K9Force and make an arrangement to take yourself and your pup for an assessment before you push this pup to the point of no return and completely ruin it. What is your issue with a flat refusal to seek professional advice? Blind Freddy can see you need it. Being stubborn is making the situation worse for your family and the puppy.

Do you recognise the harm you are doing? If you are not prepared to educate yourself and learn how to train your dog properly then return it to the breeder who might have someone looking for a dog who IS prepared to do the right thing. At this stage the pup is more than likely not suited to anyone who is not prepared to make the effort and put the work in to retrain this pup. Don't think of rehoming it yourself to anyone who hasn't a clue just because they think it's adorable.

If you continue the way you are going, despite all the concerned advice here, your dog will end up being put to sleep. There are too many mistakes being made and the pup is copping the blame. Someone will be hurt and it won't be the pup who is at fault.

This has to be one of the most frustrating threads I've ever seen on this forum. Most people who ask for advice honestly want help and will take it on board even when it's not what they want to hear, because they care about their dog.

[kaywoman68]

i have learnt alot about cocker hereditory charactoristics .

You obviously didn't learn enough about Cockers before you decided to get Bailey.

I'M GETTING TO KNOW THE DOG . I REALISE IT WAS MY FAULT. .

I WILL NOT INTIMIDATE THE DOG IN THAT WAY . I BELIEVE PROGRESS is being made. . of course i would exect this not to continue . but i'm pretty sure . if he is attacked he will bite in self defence . involuntarily. not attack .

i will spend more time training . if i was to play tug of war with him and touch him with other hand . he will snap. . of course if i see a savage trait. i will definately seek help.

he isnt showing signs of nervousness. or fear. i think it is more . breed temperament . than bad training, or the nature of the dog .

if anyone disagrees please let me know .

i have seen a similar type attitude with kaywoman 68 's cocker videos .

I WILL NOT INTIMIDATE THE DOG IN THAT WAY .

Then what have you been calling 'scorning', tying Bailey up and letting the rabbit roam?????????

i have seen a similar type attitude with kaywoman 68 's cocker videos .

what do you mean by 'similar type attitude'?

Which video/s are you referring to? I've got 4 of them on my photobucket account.

Orson coming into the lounge room quietly and jumping onto the couch -

me lying down with Orson and Oi-

The naughty cockers (Orson and Oi) actually PLAYING WITH each other with a lot of barking involved -

OR of my boyfriend throwing the ball for Orson, Orson running away and there's one bark when my boyfriend went for the ball-

I would also like to add that Orson (my gold one) was not from a registered breeder, therefore he was not bred for temperament. Isn't Bailey from a registered breeder?????? Most registered breeders are ethical and they breed for temperament..........

When are you going to learn that YOU have to change????????? You need a reality check :rolleyes:

I'm happy for you to analyse my dogs anytime you feel like Atleast I dont tease them with rabbits or growl at them like a dog

[kaywoman68]

Oh, just want to add that my dogs don't pull children's hair, tackle or growl at them They love kids!

I am seriously regretting congratulating you on your choice to get a Cocker........You obviously needed to do more research. *shrugs shoulder* Oh well, I've learnt something new.

[cavNrott]

I'M GETTING TO KNOW THE DOG . I REALISE IT WAS MY FAULT. .

I WILL NOT INTIMIDATE THE DOG IN THAT WAY .

I BELIEVE PROGRESS is being made..

i will spend more time training ..

he isnt showing signs of nervousness. or fear. i think it is more . breed temperament . than bad training, or the nature of the dog .

if anyone disagrees please let me know .

i have seen a similar type attitude with kaywoman 68 's cocker videos .

Yes it was your fault.

Things are progressing alright, they're getting worse not better.

Please don't try to train this dog yourself. If you had training knowledge things wouldn't be in the state they are now.

He is most definitely showing nervousness and fearaccording to what you tell us.

SEEK PROFESSIONAL ADVICE before the situation is worsened.

Kaywomans dog is not your dog and you don't know if the attitude was similar at all without actually seeing the dog.

[Jed]

Frank, you might be happy, the family might be happy, but I can tell you - totally and without doubt - that this poor bewildered confused, untrained and misunderstood trucking dog is NOT HAPPY.

Do the poor flaming dog a big favour and either send him back to the breeder, or let someone here rehome him. NOW. You are making a shoddy situation much worse. The poor trucking dog is confused, and scared of you.

This is NOT the breed for you. You thought it was. You were wrong. Find the dog a good home before something REALLY badder than what has happened already happens.

And it will.

Thanks

[frank]

why is it that everyone thinks i have a thing against this dog, and am being cruel to him. for a start i am learning more about training the dog then the dog having a problem .

i dont really see this dog as having a problem. hes responses and actions to situation . has been entirely normal. ( breed specific) people who are comenting about no such thing as breed specific . i have been given evidence to the contrary.

kaywoman . bailey reminds me of orson your gold dog in the 3rd video.

i didnt have to add the previous info about him biting me . because i knew it would stir up some emotion here .

i didnt even really scorn or disciplin thim for what he had done . because it was quick and startled him that i wasn't playing . his action was a repulse one. and yes it wasnt a savage bite, or growl , or snare , but a slow grab with i little pressure . do you not think the dog is learning just as i am .

this dog gets nursed to sleep in my arms , my wifes arms , and our kids arms for goodness sake.

and as far as me being his owner , well i'm not sure about that one . i think my wife is . she feeds him grooms him baths him etc etc etc .

as for my german shephard of the past , he used to wrestle me from pupy hood right through to adult hood and old age . trust is a big thing . the dog has to trust you and you have to trust it . it doesnt happen over night. and the best intentions are aspired to here . at no time has this dog . our dog bailey been given the cruel treatment.

a lot of change has taken place since then . he's temperament is getting more tolerant .

but one thing is sure . never trust a dog . it is a form of respect to an animal, not to trust too much. more so when they are pups.

[huski]

why is it that everyone thinks i have a thing against this dog, and am being cruel to him. for a start i am learning more about training the dog then the dog having a problem .

i dont really see this dog as having a problem. hes responses and actions to situation . has been entirely normal. ( breed specific) people who are comenting about no such thing as breed specific . i have been given evidence to the contrary.

kaywoman . bailey reminds me of orson your gold dog in the 3rd video.

i didnt have to add the previous info about him biting me . because i knew it would stir up some emotion here .

i didnt even really scorn or disciplin thim for what he had done . because it was quick and startled him that i wasn't playing . his action was a repulse one. and yes it wasnt a savage bite, or growl , or snare , but a slow grab with i little pressure . do you not think the dog is learning just as i am .

this dog gets nursed to sleep in my arms , my wifes arms , and our kids arms for goodness sake.

and as far as me being his owner , well i'm not sure about that one . i think my wife is . she feeds him grooms him baths him etc etc etc .

as for my german shephard of the past , he used to wrestle me from pupy hood right through to adult hood and old age . trust is a big thing . the dog has to trust you and you have to trust it . it doesnt happen over night. and the best intentions are aspired to here . at no time has this dog . our dog bailey been given the cruel treatment.

a lot of change has taken place since then . he's temperament is getting more tolerant .

but one thing is sure . never trust a dog . it is a form of respect to an animal, not to trust too much. more so when they are pups.

Frank,

A normal, well balanced and well trained dog - regardless of breed - DOES NOT BITE THEIR OWNER.

A dog that bites its owner DOES NOT HAVE ANY TRUST of that owner.

You knew that the incident about Bailey biting you would get a reaction because YOU know it is NOT normal, if it was, you would not be concerned about our reaction.

If you keep on the path you are on your poor pup will get worse and god knows what damage he will do. He is confused, scared and is lacking proper training.

This is not us giving opinion, this is a warning. Please PLEASE take the advice you have been told here on board - go and see K9 Force, just to confirm that you think you are doing the right thing - honestly, what damage can it do?

[Jed]

Frank, the cocker is a "soft" dog, easy to train, and very attuned to people. You are not treating this dog the right way.

Can you spot the errors you made when he grabbed the oily rag?

Why has the dog been running away?

Why did the dog bite you?

Why did the dog bite the children?

This is the wrong dog in the wrong place. Find him another home. Please. Before you end up coming on here telling us you have euthanased the dog because he bit your nose off.

Poor, sad little dog.

[kaywoman68]

kaywoman . bailey reminds me of orson your gold dog in the 3rd video.

I don't understand.

Orson and Oi plays very loudly and this is just a glimpse of what they do everytime they decide they wanna play.

How does it remind you of Bailey in the 3rd video (the one of Orson and Oi playing)???????? I hope it's not the noise he makes when he's around the children and you. If that's the case, it sounds like he's treating you guys like his litter mates. Orson acts like that when he's playing with dogs........

[frank]

why is it that everyone thinks i have a thing against this dog, and am being cruel to him. for a start i am learning more about training the dog then the dog having a problem .

i dont really see this dog as having a problem. hes responses and actions to situation . has been entirely normal. ( breed specific) people who are comenting about no such thing as breed specific . i have been given evidence to the contrary.

kaywoman . bailey reminds me of orson your gold dog in the 3rd video.

i didnt have to add the previous info about him biting me . because i knew it would stir up some emotion here .

i didnt even really scorn or disciplin thim for what he had done . because it was quick and startled him that i wasn't playing . his action was a repulse one. and yes it wasnt a savage bite, or growl , or snare , but a slow grab with i little pressure . do you not think the dog is learning just as i am .

this dog gets nursed to sleep in my arms , my wifes arms , and our kids arms for goodness sake.

and as far as me being his owner , well i'm not sure about that one . i think my wife is . she feeds him grooms him baths him etc etc etc .

as for my german shephard of the past , he used to wrestle me from pupy hood right through to adult hood and old age . trust is a big thing . the dog has to trust you and you have to trust it . it doesnt happen over night. and the best intentions are aspired to here . at no time has this dog . our dog bailey been given the cruel treatment.

a lot of change has taken place since then . he's temperament is getting more tolerant .

but one thing is sure . never trust a dog . it is a form of respect to an animal, not to trust too much. more so when they are pups.

Frank,

A normal, well balanced and well trained dog - regardless of breed - DOES NOT BITE THEIR OWNER.

A dog that bites its owner DOES NOT HAVE ANY TRUST of that owner.

You knew that the incident about Bailey biting you would get a reaction because YOU know it is NOT normal, if it was, you would not be concerned about our reaction.

If you keep on the path you are on your poor pup will get worse and god knows what damage he will do. He is confused, scared and is lacking proper training.

This is not us giving opinion, this is a warning. Please PLEASE take the advice you have been told here on board - go and see K9 Force, just to confirm that you think you are doing the right thing - honestly, what damage can it do?

still not convinced. that this isn't just a growing issue. however i wont rule out seeing K9. if he bites again i will discuss it with my wife . however i feel it is up to us wether he bites or ( snaps) agiain . not the dogs .

[Erny]

i grabbed him and picked him up . scorning him ...

i didnt even really scorn or disciplin thim for what he had done.

he turned around and bit me . breaking the skin on my hand... blood

...it wasnt a savage bite, or growl , or snare , but a slow grab with i little pressure.

The information in your posts are contradictory, Frank .... so I guess we don't really know exactly what's going on and I guess that in part is what is causing a lot of concern here for your pup.

why is it that everyone thinks i have a thing against this dog, and am being cruel to him ...

do you not think the dog is learning just as i am.

The problem is, your pup is not figuring it needs to learn how to understand you - it already thinks it does. He does not understand you are a novice and are making mistakes. He is learning about you and mistakes you make will be held accountable - not discounted.

Edited October 24, 2007 by Erny

[kaywoman68]

however i feel it is up to us wether he bites or ( snaps) agiain . not the dogs .

How is it that you know it is up to you and your family whether he bites or snaps again???????

A dog is NOT going to tell you when he/she bites or snaps............

[huski]

however i feel it is up to us wether he bites or ( snaps) agiain . not the dogs .

How is it that you know it is up to you and your family whether he bites or snaps again???????

A dog is NOT going to tell you when he/she bites or snaps............

And it is not necessarily going to give you lots of warning, or another "snaps" before turning around and doing some serious damage.

ETA: "A growing issue" Come on frank - it is NOT NORMAL and it is NOT a sign of a happy, well adjusted dog to BITE its owner and draw blood. This dog is terrified of you and it is only going to get worse.

Edited October 24, 2007 by husky87

[Livi]

Frank, what happens when one of the children grab Bailey because he has just run off with their new toy ?

What will you do if he bites one of them and draws blood ? What if it is your little girls face ?

How do your wife and children feel about Baileys behaviour ? From what you say your wife is the primary carer, does she have concerns ?