What's Wrong With My "cocker" ?

[Toohey]

Frank .... welcome back.

he was here reading yesterday also.....

I hope he would be good enough to give us update on how Bailey is going, and what he is planning to do. Some of us are very concerned.

[frank]

OK YA GOT ME , I'M BACK .

over a couple of weeks i have been spending some time trying to train BAILEY.

so far i have managed to train him not to run away if he gets an oportunity to escape the back gates , and gets out the front, if he got out , he would see it as a game of chase, he now knows it isn't on. and instead of running untill caught and given a smack, he got a quick chase, then i give up , and walk around the back and kick a ball with dissinterest in him, he came back voluntarilly, , the next time i caught him , but did not punish him with a smack, i just let him go and said come bailey, and walked out the back and played kicks, he followed. after this he will now come out the front , if allowed , and only to gret you, and then follow thewm back, and be given a treat, for being good. and then given a treat, for not going out when the gate was purposely left open, now a stern no , will prompt him not to go out at all, and he gets encouragement and a treat for being good. i have acheived this in around 2 weeks . he now avoids trying to escape the yard when someone opends the gate. ( to get out beforew closing it again)..

also he has been beinbg put on a leadbefore the kids start playing cricket, or chasings etc. he didnt like it at 1st, but i sat with him and patted him and gave him a treat. then after the kids stop. off the lead for some dog play, such as fetch the ball./ after a while , and a few treats, he now 1/2 accepts that when he is on a lead the kids will play , and it is not his turn, although still excited he is starting to accept , that he is being good , for being on a lead . and gets a treat and some attention if he sits and doesnt bark, thats when he gets a treat. and his attention is diverted elsewhere . besides the kids playing he gets treats whilest on the lead and told he is a good boy. when he is allowed to play with the kids . if he starts to get to rough . he is put back on the lead. he is learning through this procedure that rough play , isn't on . , and that he is not automatically in on play time . but he gets his own playtime , and treats with praise. he is now at the point where if he is left on a lead , and gets frustratedwhile the kids are playing a simple "NO BAILEY" prompts him to stop and sit still. this has been done in stages using praise . treats and voice tone. . it is still early and there is more to be done but seems to be working .

now if thew dog was developing an attack symptom , with a growl or snare , then that would've been differant . but at no time was he aggressive with his snapping. if so then perhaps i would of immediately sort proffessional training with grim hope , i have only seem moderate success with dogs such as these, and have seen dogs put down with that temperament. BAILEY SHOWED NO SIGNS OF THAT TEMPERAMENT AT ALL.

he just reached adolescence and needed to be led appropriately.

out of 8 pages here only about 5 posts actually had some good advice. the reast wasnt far short of ridicule . . it was amazing to see people ridiculing each other after i'd left this thread . to some degree , very funny . i got many laughs out of it . right now the dog is tied up outside because the rabbit is learning that the back yard is a safe place. he cant escape ( anyway there are no gaps big enough. BAILEY IS ON A LEAD LEARNING NOT TO ATTACK THE RABBIT.

after 1 hour they are now lyeing together under the clothesline. soon they will be able to be let loose with eachother . without a game of chase.

[Mushaka]

You cant get any better than Steve Austin...I would have NO hesitation sending my dog to him.

Frank already said he hasnt the time for it,best left to a professional,and theres few as good as Steve Austin,I dare say!

http://www.petresortsaustralia.com/ thats the link to his site (Steve Austin)

If he hasn't got the time for it, then why have a dog? Behaviourial problems cannot be fixed by a quick visit to a dog trainer, you need to have consistency in the dogs home and with the dogs pack. In most cases it is about teaching the owner, not the dog.

A trainer like Steve Austin may be able to handle problem dogs easily himself but that does not mean that Frank will be able to unless he is taught how to do so. Sending the dog away will be useless if Frank isn't going to continue the training at home. A quick example - my beagle will walk on a loose lead for me but not for my sister because my sister does not do any training with her and does not know how to control the dog or how to get her to walk on a loose lead.

I would never let my dog be trained by someone without knowing exactly how they are planning to do so and how they plan to achieve any results. I would want to be there the whole time so that I can learn how to handle my dog too.

ETA: Frank's problem is the dogs interactions with his children. How will sending the dog away to be trained by a stranger fix this?

this is EXACTLY as I wrote:

Truly,the cost,if you employ outside help is low,if you havent got the time,Hanrob **(Steve Austin) takes dogs and trains them for you,you DO need to continue to train yourself,but at least your well on your way.

And Steves staff spend time with the owners ,training them as well! Imsurprised you arent familiar with his process.

This dog is obviously getting too much to handle and needs urgent help

[huski]

this is EXACTLY as I wrote:

Truly,the cost,if you employ outside help is low,if you havent got the time,Hanrob **(Steve Austin) takes dogs and trains them for you,you DO need to continue to train yourself,but at least your well on your way.

And Steves staff spend time with the owners ,training them as well! Imsurprised you arent familiar with his process.

This dog is obviously getting too much to handle and needs urgent help

Why should I be familiar with his process?

I do not see the benefit in training a dog without the owner there to watch the progress and understand the theory behind it. You said that Austin's staff help the owners - who trains the dog? Austin or his staff? Why would Austin's staff show the owner how to train the dog if they weren't the ones to train it in the first place?

I have heard too many nightmare stories about places that you send your dog to to get trained that I could not be comfortable leaving my dog in the hands of the staff at these places because I cannot see what they are doing to get the results they promise. And as I said above - the dog could work well for a qualified behaviourist but it is transferring this handling knoweldge to the owner and making them capable to handle the dog that is difficult. Steve Austin may be able to train a dog in two weeks to do basic obedience but that does not guarentee it will work for the owner, if they haven't been taught how to achieve that obedience.

A training session with a behaviourist should not take much time. I only needed one two hour session with the trainer I used to help me with my dogs dog-agro/dominance. The effort and time you will need to put in afterwards would be the same as getting Steve Austin to train your dog.

He does need urgent help, as we have mentioned, he is also not too far away from Steve at K9 Force who has been in this thread giving Frank advice.

ETA: I just want to clarify, I have nothing against Hanrob or Steve Austin I just don't believe in sending your dogs away for training, because it is about YOU being trained moreso than the dog.

Edited October 23, 2007 by husky87

[poodlefan]

Frank:

BAILEY IS ON A LEAD LEARNING NOT TO ATTACK THE RABBIT.

after 1 hour they are now lyeing together under the clothesline. soon they will be able to be let loose with eachother . without a game of chase.

Frank, please don't test that theory to destruction or blame the dog if it attacks the rabbit. Bailey has already demonstrated in no uncertain terms that he has a well developed prey drive. There is no way I'd leave a dog and a rabbit unsupervised, including in the company of your children.

It's simply an accident waiting to happen.

[myValkyrie]

OK YA GOT ME , I'M BACK .

over a couple of weeks i have been spending some time trying to train BAILEY.

so far i have managed to train him not to run away if he gets an oportunity to escape the back gates , and gets out the front, if he got out , he would see it as a game of chase, he now knows it isn't on. and instead of running untill caught and given a smack, he got a quick chase, then i give up , and walk around the back and kick a ball with dissinterest in him, he came back voluntarilly, , the next time i caught him , but did not punish him with a smack, i just let him go and said come bailey, and walked out the back and played kicks, he followed. after this he will now come out the front , if allowed , and only to gret you, and then follow thewm back, and be given a treat, for being good. and then given a treat, for not going out when the gate was purposely left open, now a stern no , will prompt him not to go out at all, and he gets encouragement and a treat for being good. i have acheived this in around 2 weeks . he now avoids trying to escape the yard when someone opends the gate. ( to get out beforew closing it again)..

also he has been beinbg put on a leadbefore the kids start playing cricket, or chasings etc. he didnt like it at 1st, but i sat with him and patted him and gave him a treat. then after the kids stop. off the lead for some dog play, such as fetch the ball./ after a while , and a few treats, he now 1/2 accepts that when he is on a lead the kids will play , and it is not his turn, although still excited he is starting to accept , that he is being good , for being on a lead . and gets a treat and some attention if he sits and doesnt bark, thats when he gets a treat. and his attention is diverted elsewhere . besides the kids playing he gets treats whilest on the lead and told he is a good boy. when he is allowed to play with the kids . if he starts to get to rough . he is put back on the lead. he is learning through this procedure that rough play , isn't on . , and that he is not automatically in on play time . but he gets his own playtime , and treats with praise. he is now at the point where if he is left on a lead , and gets frustratedwhile the kids are playing a simple "NO BAILEY" prompts him to stop and sit still. this has been done in stages using praise . treats and voice tone. . it is still early and there is more to be done but seems to be working .

now if thew dog was developing an attack symptom , with a growl or snare , then that would've been differant . but at no time was he aggressive with his snapping. if so then perhaps i would of immediately sort proffessional training with grim hope , i have only seem moderate success with dogs such as these, and have seen dogs put down with that temperament. BAILEY SHOWED NO SIGNS OF THAT TEMPERAMENT AT ALL.

he just reached adolescence and needed to be led appropriately.

out of 8 pages here only about 5 posts actually had some good advice. the reast wasnt far short of ridicule . . it was amazing to see people ridiculing each other after i'd left this thread . to some degree , very funny . i got many laughs out of it . right now the dog is tied up outside because the rabbit is learning that the back yard is a safe place. he cant escape ( anyway there are no gaps big enough. BAILEY IS ON A LEAD LEARNING NOT TO ATTACK THE RABBIT.

after 1 hour they are now lyeing together under the clothesline. soon they will be able to be let loose with eachother . without a game of chase.

Hi Frank

Have been watching the thread with interest - tho I haven't contributed - so glad that things seem to be working out with Bailey - keep at it, hope it works out well for you guys

[Paganman]

Rabbits are a dogs natural prey I wouldnt take the risk if i were you. My two are oldish and trained and easy to handle but no way would I leave either one of them alone with a rabbit or cavey. One bite and the rabbit will be gone and I dont know that you could blame the dog. Best keep the rabbit in its hutch and just let it out when the dogs inside or out for a walk. Or better still keep the rabbit out the front and dog out the back I reckon thats fairer on both of them the dog wont be tempted and the rabbit will keep its neck.

[frank]

Rabbits are a dogs natural prey I wouldnt take the risk if i were you. My two are oldish and trained and easy to handle but no way would I leave either one of them alone with a rabbit or cavey. One bite and the rabbit will be gone and I dont know that you could blame the dog. Best keep the rabbit in its hutch and just let it out when the dogs inside or out for a walk. Or better still keep the rabbit out the front and dog out the back I reckon thats fairer on both of them the dog wont be tempted and the rabbit will keep its neck.

AGREED.

[cavNrott]

In the first thread, where Frank was asking for information on Cocker Spaniels, he wrote this -

the breeder is at doonside and is part of the master breeders assoc. i think they are too young to leave too . but she is fine with it or happy to keep them another week. the mother of the pups . is ia on the packet of a popular dog food. sold in petshops . these pups are orange broan

This breeder IS NOT a member of the Master Dog Breeders, and never has been.

Frank could you please clear this matter up? Is the breeder of this dog an MDBA member and therefore an ethical registered breeder?

Also, WTF is orange broan???

[Ellie]

cavNrott,

I think "orange broan" is a typo. Should be orange roan.

Ellie

[Jed]

cavNrott

Frank could you please clear this matter up? Is the breeder of this dog an MDBA member and therefore an ethical registered breeder?

The breeder does seem to be registered, and is no doubt ethical. However, she is NOT and MDBA member.

[Jed]

cavNrott

Frank could you please clear this matter up? Is the breeder of this dog an MDBA member and therefore an ethical registered breeder?

The breeder does seem to be registered, and is no doubt ethical. However, she is NOT and MDBA member.

And I think "orange broan" is a typo - should be orange roan.

[Mushaka]

husky87,i posted the link for all to see and check out for themselves..but here it is again

http://www.petresortsaustralia.com

..Anywho..This dog is in trouble and the owner hasnt the time to deal with it nor the know how.

Steve Austin as with other groups,offer IN HOUSE training for the dogs, Franks dog is in need of INTENSIVE treatment.

The dog is trained for two weeks without the owner,then the when the time comes to take the dog home,the owner is given a session taught what the dog was taught and how to maintain the training.

I would never suggest just anyone ship a dog off for training,however since this dog is now biting kids faces,its IMO for this particular case,a very worthy path to think about going down.

[cavNrott]

Steve Austin as with other groups,offer IN HOUSE training for the dogs, Franks dog is in need of INTENSIVE treatment.

I would never suggest just anyone ship a dog off for training,however since this dog is now biting kids faces,its IMO for this particular case,a very worthy path to think about going down.

We don't know whether or not the dog needs INTENSIVE treatment. Also going from what was said it sounds like the pup is nipping out of excitement and frustration rather than outright aggression.

I have no doubt Steve Austin is excellent but Frank needs to learn how to handle his dog's behaviour. I believe it's better if he learns alongside his dog.

Orange roan thanks guys.

[kaywoman68]

frank, glad to hear there seems to be some improvement with Bailey. I hope you will keep working at it and not forget about it after a few more weeks of 'teaching'.

Bailey is an orange roan Cocker puppy so I believe it's a typo

I hope there wont ever be another thread.......

NEVER EVER leave a dog with a rabbit....especially a Cocker. They have high prey instincts and you are just asking for trouble!!!!!!!!

[huski]

husky87,i posted the link for all to see and check out for themselves..but here it is again

http://www.petresortsaustralia.com

..Anywho..This dog is in trouble and the owner hasnt the time to deal with it nor the know how.

Steve Austin as with other groups,offer IN HOUSE training for the dogs, Franks dog is in need of INTENSIVE treatment.

The dog is trained for two weeks without the owner,then the when the time comes to take the dog home,the owner is given a session taught what the dog was taught and how to maintain the training.

I would never suggest just anyone ship a dog off for training,however since this dog is now biting kids faces,its IMO for this particular case,a very worthy path to think about going down.

As CavNrott said :rolleyes:

Frank needs to see a behaviourist and learn how to train his dog one on one. In house-training is not the only form of "intensive" treatment - a behaviourist like K9 Force would be more than able to help Frank and his family out in a session or two.

[alananddora]

Wow, actually spent the time reading this thread and am bemused how someone posting for help cannot realise that over 95% of this thread is positive advise and some constructive critism.

I hope that frank is lucky and his dog grows up to have the same temperament as his GS, as his current methodology is clearly incorrect - even for a newbie dog owner such as myself I can see the folly in his thinking.

We are a first time dog owner (ignoring my parents lap dog!) and with our 16 wk GS need all the help and research we can get to ensure she grows up to be a great dog. Sure I could leave her to behave as a human, but then again I could try and draw upon the wealth of experience out there from people who have lived with dogs all their lives and know what they are talking about. We have invested in K9 Force for his guidance - maybe overkill some would think but we are not going to take any chances.

I do wish Frank all the luck in the world - but, only for his children's sake and of course his dogs.

[chloebear]

I am amazed that this thread is still going, considering we are never going to know the outcome.......just hope it all ends well.

[Erny]

I am amazed that this thread is still going, considering we are never going to know the outcome.......just hope it all ends well.

Why do you think we'll never know the outcome?

[frank]

well so far the family is happy. i'm happy, the dog is happy, and the rabbit is happy.

i have learnt alot about cocker hereditory charactoristics . and have had a lot of pms from great people offering help. advice and sympathetic ears.

if you stir up a cocker . or dont accept it's charactor. you can be fooled into thinking a dog is a dog. breeds are differant . and need to be respected in differant ways . we are learning to live accordingly.

on a side note . last week bailey bit me . i was changing the oil of my mower, in the garage . i drained the dirty black oil, into a bucket, and put a rag in the bucket of black oil also , when i turned my back . bailey pulled the rag out . and started running around the garage . with the oil soaked rag in his mouth, dripping it all over the garage floor . right next to our 60k GT FALCON . :rolleyes: after a quick panic and chase . i grabbed him and picked him up . scorning him . he turned around and bit me . breaking the skin on my hand . after thinking for a bit . i put my hand in front of his snout . he smelt my blood and started shaking . with his tail between his legs . i ignored him for the rest of the night. even though i continued working . he sat next to me . unsure of his approval. but he has been fine since. dont know if it was a learning curve for him .

i guess i've just ensured many many more replies to this thread now.

Edited October 24, 2007 by frank