What's Wrong With My "cocker" ?

[huski]

I WILL KEEP A MATURE head about this.i dont believe the dog is a threat to any member of the family. i do think he challenges my son because he is the smallest and loudest in the family. he is still allowed to play with the kids . but the kids wont be having running races without an adult present . and the dog will be kept away from rough play by either being with me or my wife . he plays ball well. and chase well. and soccer well. on this day though as brayden ( my son) was running past him he bit him on the arm . we gave the dog a smack on the bum and said naughty. then the kids raced again , this time he bit brayden on the back . then he was put inot the shed ( where his bed is , and the door was closed . he new he was in trouble and started howling . now after he was let out , by all of us he rejoined us in the back yard for non rough play ( a pat and a walk) .

no obedience training . and wont be getting any , unless this becomes a continued problem . we assume the dog will outgrow it . and so will our son. till then no running races or rough play in the back yard without adult supervision .

our german shephard would've let any member of the family kill it without even a growl . i guess we were lucky with this temperament . which was learned over time . bailey will play as rough as anyone does with him . i guess he needs to learn not to be the instigator. he enjoys the kids, and the family.

The dog will not "outgrow" the problem, he will keep displaying this behaviour until you teach him in the right way that it is not on.

Obedience training is not something you do when your dog develops a behavioural problem, or something you start once a problem gets out of hand - it is something you should be doing from the day you bring your puppy home. I'm actually a little bit shocked at your attitude towards training your dog.

Do a quick search of training clubs in your area, they are generally cheap and on once a week. It is something you can get the kids involved in and will give your puppy some guidance and structure - and mental stimulation. It might just teach him some good manners, too.

[Jed]

2 good posts, Cavnrott. I suggested the dog might have to be rehomed if the problem couldn't be sorted.

Frank, there is a good book by Val Bonney - "Who's The Boss?" which costs about $20 and may well solve the problem for you.

[poodlefan]

then he was put inot the shed ( where his bed is , and the door was closed . he new he was in trouble and started howling .

Nope, he was isolated from you and expressing his displeasure. Try to avoid interpreting his behaviour in human terms Frank.

now after he was let out , by all of us he rejoined us in the back yard for non rough play ( a pat and a walk) .

And his level of arousal was lower so he didn't chase and bite. Frank an ounce of prevention is really the way to go here. Chasing screaming kids who are running around is going to escalate this youngster through the roof in terms of excitement - and he targets the youngest member of your family for seriously rough play.

Don't let this happen. Tieing him up will only raise both his excitement levels and his frustration at not being able to get at the action.

Take him to some formal training and give him more appropriate outlets for his energy.. ball chasing etc. Discipline him HARD (I'd have done my block at him) and give him a time out but it's better to prevent this than to "cure" it.

There's nothing "wrong" 'with him Frank.. you are simply getting the dog you've raised/trained - as do we all.

Edited October 15, 2007 by poodlefan

[cavNrott]

Take him to some formal training and give him more appropriate outlets for his energy.. ball chasing etc. Discipline him HARD (I'd have done my block at him) and give him a time out but it's better to prevent this than to "cure" it.

I have a problem with using HARD discipline on a puppy who has had no training because he hasn't been shown or given an alternative behaviour and doesn't know what it was he did wrong. Hard discipline in this case would certainly let the pup know it was in big trouble but Frank was presumably not running with the kids so the discipline could not be metered out on the spot. The pup would still not know exactly what he did that was unacceptable. I believe pups need redirection as a training method rather than hard discipline particularly in the area of putting teeth on skin and they need it right from the start.

The pup is nipping because he's doing what comes naturally, no one has taught him otherwise.

I will correct a pup when it knows what it has done is wrong. It's my job to teach them that. If I've failed to teach then it's my fault and I'd better step up the training.

[poodlefan]

Vive la difference CavnRott.

No dog of mine would put teeth on a child and be left with any impression other than that it was totally unacceptable. But as you suggest, it would know that at 8 weeks, not 10 months. Giving a dog a time out lowers arousal levels but does not teach that mouthing is unacceptable. Redirection may not either.

I wonder what has been occuring between Frank's son and the pup when Frank's not around - perhaps this kind of "play" has a history to it.

Edited October 15, 2007 by poodlefan

[cavNrott]

Vive la difference CavnRott.

No dog of mine would put teeth on a child and be left with any impression other than that it was totally unacceptable. But as you suggest, it would know that at 8 weeks, not 10 months. Giving a dog a time out lowers arousal levels but does not teach that mouthing is unacceptable. Redirection may not either.

I wondering what has been occuring between Frank's son and the pup when Frank's not around - perhaps this kind of "play" has a history to it.

Same here poodlefan. No teeth on skin is taught right at the start but I don't hard correct for it unless the pup knows quite well what it's being corrected for. I train by saying ah ah and stuffing a toy in pups mouth, then praise for taking the toy.

One of my pups was a land shark and she did get a couple of time outs to give me time to cool down. I was on the spot though as it was my arm being attacked so the correction was immediate.

I was wondering the same thing as you about a play history with the boy and pup.

Edited October 15, 2007 by cavNrott

[Silverblue]

Everything I wanted to say has already been said.

[percyk]

i agree about the training and yes u dont have to go to classes but it is fun and something u and the kids can do

my first attempts at training were really good i feel lol lol considering i was living up the top end and there were no puppy classes ...not even a resident vet

but i bought michael tuckers book oh lol...so funny to look at the pics now

the dogs did well

mind u

i had a gorgeous german shepherd dog...and what a dream

and a sassy lil girl aussie terrier and they learnt quickly

i was young and single and had time to spend but it was so important that the dogs were trained cos i used to take them away on school camps and even tho i didnt even think about it...there woulda been a catastrophe had the dogs taken to biting and chasing kids

i say do it...ull be surprised how rewarding it is

i trained one of my cockers at home...she too was a dream to teach and she learnt almost by watching the golden retriever that i was putting thru obedience school...( dont know if dogs can pick up things by watching other dogs learn ..i really would like to know this if anyone has read anything about it)

good luck with ur pup...i know of a lady whose black cocker is also nipping at the kids feet but she says hes getting better....

[Poodle wrangler]

Your cocker sounds like a normal dog who needs some training.

My 10-month old standard poodle pup used to run, jump up and mouth my son who only encouraged him, No biting, however.

I banned the game because the dog was learning very bad habits. They were having fun, but it was training him to chase, jump up on and mouth kids who run. He's 25kg!

You don't want to do obedience with the dog ;) ?

THat's a shame, because it improves your relationship with the dog and helps them understand what you're talking about. A trained dog is so much better to live with. Takes nothing away from the dog's personality.

[frank]

i dont see anything wrong with training a dog. or a trained dog . however . none of my pets have been professionally trained . nor have they been the same . 2 of them have been ideal, both differant breeds . 1 kelpy, 1 GS. I HAD A BULLMASTIFF X G S . WHEN WE 1ST MARRIED, adored the dog . had no kids , unfortunately one day i came home to see some young children on the fence throwing rocks at him and scourning him . after that he growled when ever he seen little people . that dog died because of me . ( hit by A CAR without a lead when i was walking him , some dogs broke out of there own backyards , attacked and chased him onto the road and head on into a car . he died in my arms with his blood literally on my hands . i never got over that, but still i was worried about us having kids with this dog , after that we got JESSIE . our purebred male german shepherd ( my soul pet) always on a lead , loyal and polite to all; right through life, playfull and considerate, and protective , with no training.THIS DOG WAS MORE TRUST WORTHY WITH KIDS THAN ANY ADULT. till death of natural causes at age 10 1/2 yrs RIP.

ALWAYS HAD DOGS SINCE I WAS BORN . NONE OF THEM WERE EVER trained professionally , whilst i am not against this . i dont see it as essential. Bailey is coming along with little problems like this due to immaturity and excitement. he still gets his walk every day by my wife . she feeds him too. i massage groom and discipline him, and give him snacks . i praise him , and also play rough with him . i do not allow him to be rough with anyone else , ever. he is treated like he is at the bottom of the rank. i think he does challange this rank. i will not trust him. i now know that you cannot trust a dog . the 2 ideal dogs in the past, were naturally rare.

i dont wish to spend time training this dog professionally . but if he becomes uncontrollabe then i most definately will, however . in my limited judgement . i think he is just being a NORMAL DOG. and has a dogs life .

your replies have tought me a few things here , but not that i am making major errors with the dog . obviously the 1st dog jake ( that got killed ) was my fault and back then i was not fit to own a pet . but not any more . i nor my family do not FEAR bailey. untill then we will not sort after proffessional help. i just want him as a normal pet , not a master race of animal.

Edited October 15, 2007 by frank

[Dogsfevr]

"no obedience training . and wont be getting any , unless this becomes a continued problem . we assume the dog will outgrow it "

If this is what you consider a mature head response then i feel very sorry for this dog.

It has bitten your daughter,your son so yes this is a continued problem

You have posted since the day it came home about problems with behaviour & now at 10 months your pup still has issues yet you dont choice to be responsable & do training.

Your methods arent working so how long do you plan to wait & how many more bad habits will you allow this poor dog to learn before actually doing something .

Locking in the shed doesnt teach the dog anything,nor does smacking,tieing up & ignoring.

I hope for your sake & the childrens this doesnt end up with a bad incidient & the dog is forced into a not pleasant future

[poodlefan]

None of my dogs are "professionally trained" either Frank... just trained by me at the local community dog club. Through that club I learned how to get my dog's focus, to control him so that he would be well mannered in all kinds of situations and to build a bond based on respect.

None of that has made my dog (or the ones that followed him) a member of a "master race" - just a well mannered pet that can be relied on not to act inappropriately around people or dogs.

I've yet to see a dog "grow out of" a behavioural problem any more than children do. It requires learning and teaching appropriate behaviour.

Edited October 15, 2007 by poodlefan

[persephone]

Frank... to have a 'trained' dog doesn't HAVE to mean lining up at a class...not at all.

YOU can do it at home, as part of everyday.

Take bits of information from the threads on here..books at the library..converstaions with others...

THEN for a set period each day, go thru some simple rules/ commands, until Bailey does what you ask WHEN you ask :D Simple. HE learns the rules, and YOU get a more thorough insight into how he is thinking .

Dogs operate on a fairly obvious system.

If I get REWARD..I'll DO it!!

Reward can be an adrenaline rush...

FOOD ( very strong one)

praise from a human

So...teaching then becomes very easy... dog is shown gently what he needs to do.

REWARD

Dog associates the action with reward...

This is repeated.......

Dog eventually DOES the action in response to Person asking/telling.

Dog gets REWARD!!

Dog is happy

Person is happy

a communication has been established, and for a time, dog and person are 'speaking the same language"

You are lucky in having those dogs earlier in your life..they meant a lot to you, and sounded great mates :D

None of our dogs are professionally trained either.....BUT they will do as we say .

[cavNrott]

your replies have tought me a few things here , but not that i am making major errors with the dog . obviously the 1st dog jake ( that got killed ) was my fault and back then i was not fit to own a pet . but not any more . i nor my family do not FEAR bailey. untill then we will not sort after proffessional help. i just want him as a normal pet , not a master race of animal.

Frank you ARE making major errors and the pup is biting the children because of it.

Tying a dog up when children are running around screaming and playing is a major error.

Smacking a dog, especially one who hasn't been taught what is expected of it is a major error.

The reasons have already been explained in fine detail for you.

Not all dogs are the same and you seem to think that because you've had easy dogs in the past that all dogs are easy...they're not, the same as all people are not the same.

Surely you don't think those of us who have put the time and effort into training our dogs to behave are the owners of zombie dogs. We have well behaved trustworthy dogs because we put in the time and effort with them for their benefit as well as ours. If we take on dogs we owe it to them to help them understand what we expect of them. Please don't short change your pup because it will be him who pays the price

[chloebear]

I have never had a professionally trained dog, but I have spent a lot of time with my dogs each day to teach them what is expected in their behaviour. I have found that the biggest thing is to be consistent. My previous dog was a very high spirited activate dog but was execptionally gental with my young children this was because of the amount of time my husband and I spent training her we have never had anyone bitten. My new puppy is the opposite from an abusive neglected sitution so the way in which I am training her is different to that of my previous dog, but once again it is about consistency and regular training. I also involve my children in the training in small ways - my children are 4 and 2 but I feel this teaches both the children and the dog how to interact with each other appropriately.

[chloebear]

I have never had a professionally trained dog, but I have spent a lot of time with my dogs each day to teach them what is expected in their behaviour. I have found that the biggest thing is to be consistent. My previous dog was a very high spirited activate dog but was execptionally gental with my young children this was because of the amount of time my husband and I spent training her we have never had anyone bitten. My new puppy is the opposite from an abusive neglected sitution so the way in which I am training her is different to that of my previous dog, but once again it is about consistency and regular training. I also involve my children in the training in small ways - my children are 4 and 2 but I feel this teaches both the children and the dog how to interact with each other appropriately.

Sorry I forgot to say - Yes to I have made several mistakes in the way that I have done things in the past with training (and I still do). But it is about recognising your mistakes, getting good sound advice and moving forward. After all a new day brings a new beginning for both your family and your pets. I have found that using this forum is a good place to get a variety of ideas on training and then choose the one that best suits your sitution and the one that you feel most comfortable with. The advice here is from people that interact with their dogs on a daily basis and have a variety of different experiences.

[frank]

thanks for all the replies guys . the time for training ( obediance is now )

i'm bessoted . he has done it again. he bit my son again . this time on the face . ( no broken skin) but none the less . it's not on and has now quickly become a problem . it's the same boy. he doesnt do it with my daughter . so i will ask my wife to get involved with this . as i cant do it with working full time on weekends and rotating shifts . :D .

if we are advised for him to go. i'll offer him here . for someone with other dogs and no children . for free . i guess i'll contact the breeder. we brought a cocker because of thier temperament.

[Cosmolo]

You bought a cocker because of their temperament but then haven't actively trained the dog?? Maybe the dog should go back to the breeder? Unless you are prepared to invest some time and energy into the training of a young dog who has not been given appropriate boundaries and rules. Why would you wait until there is such a big problem? Behaviour problems are much easier to deal with if you deal with them as soon as they arise.

[chloebear]

Frank - So far you have been lucky that no permanent damage has been done to your son but unforuntely next time you may not be so lucky so perhaps it may be better to offer the cocker to someone who has more time to devote to addressing the needs of the dog to correct the problems before they become more serious. As a parent I can understand the time restraints that you face and yes it can be very difficult to find the time to train a dog. No matter what you decide to do I am sure you will consider both the needs of your family and the cocker.

[Erny]

... he has done it again. he bit my son again . this time on the face . ( no broken skin) but none the less . it's not on and has now quickly become a problem . we brought a cocker because of thier temperament.

He quite likely had the right temperament, but has been and continues to receive the wrong guidance. Dogs aren't born knowing how us humans want and expect them to interact. As their owners we have the responsibility of teaching them that. Dogs do have an instinct that looks for leadership and recognises it when it is there. They also recognise when it is not.

The first component of this family unit that needs training is the human component. With that in hand you will likely gain an understanding of dogs and dog behaviour and be able to sort through this in an effective and productive manner - ie one that your dog will understand and respond favourably to.

Seek one-on-one professional help if you are unclear. As whilst you are muddling your way through this even more errors are likely to be made and payment for those mistakes will be rendered by your son and the dog. And by then you might consider it too late for redemption.

Edited October 16, 2007 by Erny