Agility Question

[JulesP]

Just a newbie question on touching the ground after an obstacle. I get that the dog has to make contact with the ends of the obstacle and that it gives the handler time to catch up but what I don't get is why touching. Why can't you just ask the dog to wait or drop or something?? what is with the touching the ground?

[Vehs]

contact with the ends of the obstacle ...but what I don't get is why touching.

uhm.. :D If your dog waits or drops it slows down the momentum, if they can run down, do their touch then they've reached the last colour point on the obstacle and can move on.

eta: handler catching up is just not on the cards

[t(AD)pole]

The dog just has to touch the colour on the end of a contact obstacle, they do not have to stop. It is for safety so the dog does not jump off the top of and obstacle.

[J...]

Its mostly so you have a clear contact criteria for the dog - so you use whatever word you want to train the criteria you want. The touching of both ground and contact is a clear criteria for a dog, just touching the colour at the end means nothing to them at all.

I experimented with a running contact for a few weeks, but found its too hit and miss - especially when you only have access to A-frame and dog walk at training once a week. I've gone back to 2o2o because at least I can work on that at home easily. Plus its a control point for me, my dogs quick so I can make her hold that position and catch up to her if I need to! :D

[JulesP]

I still don't really get it. Maybe because it is not needed with my dog, not the speediest animal in the world and he isn't looking like taking any flying heaps off things! I'll have to go and watch an agility comp I think. Are there any on in the east melb suburbs soon??? I have to admit that the whole agility thing has got me rather intrigued now.

[J...]

Some dogs (particularly smaller dogs) have a natural stride pattern that allows them to hit contacts with minimal training - a natural running contact. Anyone who has that is very lucky! Take it from someone who's dog willingly flies off them from about an inch above the colour

Take a look on youtube under "agility contacts" and then maybe "running contact" and "2o2o" etc, you should get some ideas there.

Warragul has a double trial on the 17th and 18th November if its not too far for you to go and have a look! :D

[kelpiechick]

Hi JulesP,

I am assuming you are talking about dogs performing the contact obstacles (dogwalk, AFrame and seesaw) who stop in what is called a '2 on 2 off' position- where the dog's front paws are on the ground and the dog's back paws are on the wood and the dog then waits to be released by their handler before continuing on to the next obstacle.

Firstly, it is not mandatory for dogs to assume this position.

The ones you have seen doing this would be because the handler has chosen to train the dog to stop in this way.

As others mentioned, the rules state that the dog must make contact with the 'coloured area' before leaving the obstacle. Technically the dog only needs to get one paw on this coloured area for a legal performance and there is no requirement to stop. (although a judge could still choose to penalise you if they thought your dog got off the obstacle in an unsafe manner)

If you go to a trial you will most likely see contact obstacles performed in 3 different ways (generalisation as there are many more methods !)

1. 2 on 2 off, the position I think you are referring to.

Good method for fast dogs as it creates a very clear 'picture' for the dog about what its job is. As feralpup said, getting the dog to stop in this position is generally considered to be the clearest or easiest stop for the dog to understand.

Some people do train their dogs to stop with all 4 feet on the contact and there is no reason why you can't do that, however it is very difficult to teach your dog to stop in the same position every time, especially now the slats have been removed. (same for stopping with all 4 feet just off the contact)

Some trainers link other criteria with 2on 2 off method, such as teaching the dog to touch its nose to the ground - the current agility 'gurus' believe this position makes it easier to teach the dog to rock its weight back, which is considered a safer postion, less strain on the shoulders.

2. Running contact, where the dog does not stop at all but is trained to run to the end of the obstacle and continue on immediately. This method creates fast contact performance but some handlers then need to train a way to teach the dog what obstacle to take next if they are unable to beat their dog to the end of the obstacle - eg: train directionals ( left and right)

A true running contact (dog coming down with extended stride, not slowing or gathering) is probably the most difficult method to train to 100% reliability)

*These 2 methods are what is known as an 'independent contact'. Your dog understands what to do without you by its side which gives you the freedom to move anywhere you want on the course and set yourself up for the next obstacle.

3. Handler dependent contacts. Dog does the contact at the same speed as the handler , often following the handler's finger like a lure. Or the handler may move in front of the dog and 'block' it at the end to prevent jumping off.

Not something that I would want to have as my contact performance but you will see plenty do it as it takes relatively little training and appears to give more 'instant results'. Getting your dog to slow down on the down ramp would also fall into this category. Nothing to say you are not allowed to do it, but the point of agility is to try to get around the course clear in the fastest time possible and if you choose to train this 'method' then you will lose a lot of time on contacts.

So to sum up, there is no uniform way that every dog has to perform its contacts, some stop, some don't.

Different methods suit different dogs and every trainer has their own 'personal favourite' I'm sure.

There is a trial at Ballarat next Sunday- probably a bit far- but I think there is also Westernport at KCC park on Sat. so you could go along a watch for a better idea. Hope this helps.

Edited October 13, 2007 by kelpiechick

[JulesP]

Thanks guys. Club is teaching the 2o2o but also expect the dog to touch the ground with its nose. Not sure if it will be the best method with Brock as he is very naturally careful and umm slow. I can't see the point of getting the dog to touch the ground with its nose but as I am a newbie at this I am going along at the moment. I do like to know the whys though.

[kelpiechick]

Main reasons for adding a nose touch on 2o2o -

1. Dogs need very clear criteria for consistent contact performance and this makes the end position very clear as they have a 'job' to do rather than just standing there. (working breeds love having a job!)

2. It forces the dog to lower its head as it drives into position, making it easier for the dog to rock its weight back, considered a safer position with less stress on the shoulders.

3. When training the position initially it gives the opportunity for multiple reinforcement of the position. My young dog has been taught to nose touch over and over again until I release him. Obviously I will release him after the first touch in a trial situation - if he ever gets there!

4. It is common for contact behaviour to deteriorate at some stage over a dog's career. When this happens it is generally the last part of the behaviour that disappears first, in this case that would be the nose touch. OK, at this stage I would be wasting lots of time at a trial waiting for my dog to add the nose touch (or I might let my criteria slip and just release him anyway - bad trainer - but at least he hasn't jumped off the contact and risked injury.

Not sure how long Brock has been doing agility for, but his speed may increase once he understands what he is doing. Speed comes with clarity of learning.

Having said that, it is not the ideal method for all dogs. Maybe you should discuss your questions with your instructor.

[JulesP]

Thanks KC. That helps. Doubt Brock will get much faster, the only time I have seen him go anywhere at any speed was when a tree fell down and nearly squashed him! He is a laid back character!