Agressive Behaviour

[yvonnet]

My 7 year old border collie bonnie is agressive towrds everyone but me and my husband and until today my 3 year old daughter. If I take him for a walk and anyone comes to close he will lunge at them teeth showing and try to attack them. He has already bitten several friends and relatives of ours and today nipped my 3 year old daughter.

I have taken him to obedience school but that just made things worse as he would be trying to attack the trainers and the other dogs. I have even tried an injection from the vet that was a hormonal injection to try and calm him down. My vet has suggested if the injection didn't work my next step would be to consider putting him to sleep as I have a responsibility as a pet owner.

As you know your dogs become part of the family and I would not give up on one of my children so easily so why should i give up on my dog. Although now Bonnie has crossed the line when he nipped my daughter. Can he ever be trusted again?

Thanks am hoping someone can give some advice before tomorrow evening

Yvonne

[Erny]

Where are you located?

You need to consult with a reputable trainer/behaviourist qualified to assess and assist in aggression behaviour modification. And you need to do it like yesterday. By the sounds it has already waited too long to be addressed (not always to suggest too late) .... and I'm surprised (or am I really) that your Vet has considered an injection to calm the dog would be all that would be required. Or could this simply be my assumption .... perhaps there is more to it than the info here allows at this time?

It would also assist if you could tell us if your obedience school instructors were able or willing to give you any behaviour modification techniques to follow to progressively improve this dog's behaviour, or any investigation and explanation as to why it is occurring.

Edited October 10, 2007 by Erny

[yvonnet]

Where are you located?

You need to consult with a reputable trainer/behaviourist qualified to assess and assist in aggression behaviour modification. And you need to do it like yesterday. By the sounds it has already waited too long to be addressed (not always to suggest too late) .... and I'm surprised (or am I really) that your Vet has considered an injection to calm the dog would be all that would be required. Or could this simply be my assumption .... perhaps there is more to it than the info here allows at this time?

It would also assist if you could tell us if your obedience school instructors were able or willing to give you any behaviour modification techniques to follow to progressively improve this dog's behaviour, or any investigation and explanation as to why it is occurring.

[yvonnet]

I am located in Melbourne and no when I was attending the obedience shool with the dog he has first thought to have fear aggression then it was dominant based aggression. So at the end of the day i did not get a diagnosis and the trainers gave up on him, hence why we stopped attending.

[percyk]

hard call for u

a bc is a pretty big dog that can do considerable damage

and a little toddler cant defend itself

i havebeen in that situation...i have had a dog which was a fear biter with other dogs but not with people and i have had a brief encounter with a large dog we bought that was very dominant and really should not have been placed in our family when we had a young son

i have minded a dog that used to nip if rough handled or tired but we kinda could read the signs and it was only a small dog and the kids were old enough to handle the situation by then

from what i have seen personally and read the situation can escalate...from nipping to biting

and sure there are behaviourists who can assess and work with the dog but in the end...would u trust it completely?

theres a few years before ur child could be competent enough to handle such a dog if the unpredictable behaviour persisted

an awful choice to make...

im not suggesting pts or even rehoming...but u have to ask urself how commited u are to getting this dog back onto the road to being a good trusted companion...i believe most things are possible but not everyone has the 'magic' of caeser milan ( nor do we really know what happens in the end with the so-called rehabilitated dogs he works with )

for the average person its a big ask...and it costs money to have them trained and huge dedication to keep it all going...

mind u ...there are a lot of average people doing the not-so-average thing so im not suggesting u do anything but study the challenges ahead and assess ur own capability and commitment

im truly sympathising with u here...its a rotten situation for u all to be in .. a dog that cannot be trusted loses its freedom ...can u walk this dog where there are people? are u always on ur guard...? these dogs need lots of exercise and stimulation as u know and if u dont trust it ..each outing becomes fraught with potential disaster...u leave it i nthe yard and its literally driven nuts wreacking havoc... keeping a toddler and a family pet separated is a nightmare and kinda defeats the purpose of having a dog anyway...

im just rambling here trying to come to my own conclusion as to what i would choose to do ...i hope u have some time to decide and that u meet with a professional who can shed light

we once gave up a standard poodle after having it assessed by a dog psychologist who came to our house and spent over three hourse with our dog...in the end it was decided it was too much of a risk for our 5 year old son to cope with and the dog was returned to the breeder who thankfully was very gracious and understanding

it was awful..u feel like a failure but looking back ..there was no way i couldve put in the time to get that dog 'right' for us...i was far less experienced and very busy with a young family and work commitments...so there was no choice for me...we needed a dog that could just be a family dog and not something that had to be coaxed into it

good luck with ur situation and keep us posted

[yvonnet]

Thanks for your response I cant walk the dog in a public place because he is unpredictable he may try and attack one person and be fine with the next. I have just had our second child so really don't have the time to "get the dog right" I wish i did but even then it is still not deffinate he will be a changed dog.

[kateykateykatey]

I didn't realise this was cross-posted-- oops

Hi Yvonnet! I've got a Border Collie x, and he's a bit mental too. I'm not a border collie expert, but I think that these dogs are exceptionally clever, and without appropriate boundaries and leadership, as well as *lots* of exercise and stimulation, are prone to being stressed, over-anxious and crazy.

It's not the sole solution, but I think that some things that all dogs need, border collies in particular, are:

*lots of exercise

*mental stimulation (as in, practicing obedience training, and I teach my dog tricks)

*toys (Kongs are invaluable for this)

*strong leadership

*affection. bucketloads of it.

*positive reinforcement of good behaviour-- I can't emphasise the last one enough.

I don't think that sedation is a solution until all these other boxes are ticked, although there was a time I was so beside myself at my inability to 'deal' with a crazy dog that I thought so.

I'm not saying that these are the right or wrong solution for you, simply that this is what was necessary in my experience. I'd be concerned that the dog was biting also, but I imagine health issues need to be ruled out as well (such as arthritis) but fundamental leadership issues also need to be addressed. Owning a dog is supposed to be rewarding and happy! I understand completely the stress and frustration of feeling like it's more problematic than anything else, but often these issues *are* manageable.

Where do you live? We see a behavioural vet who is super-fantastic, and really set us on the right track to having a rewarding and happy relationship with our 'problem dog'.

In the interim, be careful of the dog around the baby. Better to be safe.

I should add, my dog isn't free from issues, but they're much more manageable than what they were.

[kateykateykatey]

FWIW, not all vets would recommend sedation straight off the bat... but perhaps it was part of a management plan, I don't know.

[Janba]

I have a feeling the injection the dog was given is one that increases the levels of female hormones and can be effective in some cases with aggression in a male dog. It is not a sedative.

[JeffnCel]

I can't offer any suggestions, but as a parent I understand where you're coming from. Good luck with it all

[Pug Hugger]

I cannot help but to say I am so surprised. I grew up with two border collies (who are now 9 and 18 and still going strong) and I could not reccomend to anyone a better family pet (some that are is good, but none that are better;))

I hope you work out the best solution for you and your family, and I hope I never find myself in your position.

[aranyoz]

You have a potentially very dangerous situation developing.

You should have the dog assessed by a behaviouralist or certified trainer.

While the thought of giving up your dog is very hard you have to place the welfare of your children first.

I have been where you are and have had to return a dog to the breeder. Your dog is probably well past the stage where it would be easy to modify it's behaviour. You are probably facing the fact that you may have to have the dog put to sleep.

Please do not wait until your child is injured to make this decision...

Edited October 11, 2007 by aranyoz

[Staranais]

I am located in Melbourne and no when I was attending the obedience shool with the dog he has first thought to have fear aggression then it was dominant based aggression. So at the end of the day i did not get a diagnosis and the trainers gave up on him, hence why we stopped attending.

The sad fact is that lots of nice, well meaning obedience trainers really have no idea how to diagnose or treat dog aggression - even if they think they do. As someone who has owned an aggressive dog for years, I know that for a fact! And getting advice about canine aggression from someone who doesn't really know what they're talking about is a recipe for disaster.

Hopefully someone who is from Melbourne can recommend a really good, qualified, experienced dog behaviourist to you, one that specialises in aggression. I think Erny might be in Melbourne, and she's a qualified dog trainer, so she might be a good person to PM. If she can't see your dog, she might be able to recommend other good local behaviourists to you.

The benefit of seeing a good behaviourist is not just that your dog might be saved (although he might be quite salvageable - some aggression problems are way easier to manage and fix than you might think.) It's also that if your dog can't be saved, you'll have a clearer concience about putting him to sleep, since you will have done it on the professional opinion of a really good, qualified, experienced behaviourist (i.e, you won't be always thinking "perhaps I could have saved him..."). And the behaviourist might be able to give you some idea about what went wrong, so you know what to do differently next time you get a dog, which is always a really good thing.

Good luck.

[Erny]

... don't have the time to "get the dog right"

I'm in Melbourne, if you'd like to PM me we can arrange a consult, but time is what will be needed if you want to help change the dog's behaviour.