Um, Anyone Read The Series Of Articles In Dogs Vic Magazine?

[leopuppy04]

True, but I still think there is also confusion among trainers in regard to how we 'label' ourselves and this plays a big part in these debates becoming 'inflamed'.

eg: what is considered 'purely positive' by one person is not the same as how another sees it.

what is seen as a 'correction' by one person is not seen as a correction by another.

Maybe labelling ourselves as a particular type of trainer creates a stereotyped image in the eyes of another.

Couldn't agree more - the labelling causes more of a rift than the simple 'method' itself at times IMO.

Not sure as to how there can ever be 'no consequences' with positive training?

Does that mean if you were giving no consequences, then everything would be rewarded whether it was the behaviour you were shaping or not?

Wouldn't withholding the reward for incorrect performance be considered a consequence?

(Based on the premise that behaviour that is rewarded continues, behaviour not rewarded extinguishes)

Yep - exactly - the dog 'sits' and no matter how fast, how precise or anything - it gets rewarded. If it doesn't sit, it is bribed to sit THEN given the treat.

Not saying a 'trainer' would train this way, but it is done, and these are the only ones that are 'purely positive'. For learning to occur, I believe there has to be relevant consequences for behaviour.

[JulesP]

Wanders in to thread..... Definately agree you HAVE to have a BC ..... runs very quickly away.....

[Pippi]

Wanders in to thread..... Definately agree you HAVE to have a BC ..... runs very quickly away.....

:D Yep I think this is the best contribution to this thread to date and I agree wholeheartedly.... I'm running with you.

Edited October 12, 2007 by Pippi

[Arya]

GSD... BC... GSD... BC Really, they are all dogs in the end I love em all! Yes I agree some of the earlier stuff in MTs articles were useful and fine to people getting into training, particularly the footwork for about turns. It's just I completely disagree with the no-tug and BC only statements and I think that it was irresponsible to stick them in. However, if a dog has dominance issues I believe that a good trainer could probably help a person to learn to use these tools to help actually SOLVE them. So for a general article, I don't think he needed to put these comments in at all! Couldn't disagree with him more if I tried. Not to say everyone will feel the same of course!!! Interested to read all that this thread I started brought out.

BTW, I love the DogsVic magazine. Nothing against the mag, just could have had better author or articles on training!

[SkySoaringMagpie]

Hi just got me latest copy of Dogs Vic magazine and read the article on dog training. What do people think of these articles. I have found several things in them that made me cringe to be frank. Last month it was the comment that people in the UK have found they need a Border Collie to stand any chance of winning Obedience tests (what are all their other dogs stupid or something over there?LOL).

It's a shame they published the comment about BCs, because not everyone who trials does it to win places just as not everyone who shows does it to win BIS's.

Sure, if you do want to win, a BC is a good option, but as PF mentions, it can go horribly wrong.

[Sayreovi]

IMO, if you are a good enough trainer you dont have to have a BC, GSD or even a Toller to win in top events!

I have more respect for trainers who can get different breeds trialling successfully more then the one who has only had BCs excel.

[SkySoaringMagpie]

IMO, if you are a good enough trainer you dont have to have a BC, GSD or even a Toller to win in top events!

I have more respect for trainers who can get different breeds trialling successfully more then the one who has only had BCs excel.

Definitely agree. In my last post I had written out but then deleted something about a dog trainer in the US who decided she was all out of challenges with her traditional obedience breed dogs and she got an Afghan. I saw her work the Afghan on a TV show and I'll never forget it doing a perfect and precise retrieve with a dumbbell. Incredible stuff if you know Afghans well.

I deleted the paragraph, because having Salukis myself, and having gone through the hassle of trying to train a difficult to train breed as a novice, I don't blame people who decide to go for the more biddable ones or the people who just want to work with their dog and are either not ready for, or not interested in elite competition. There's way too much snobbery in dog world, including inverse snobbery. Those people who are "just" getting no-place passes with their heart dogs are the ones who support clubs with entry fees.

Plus, the other reason I deleted it is because I believe that if you are going to work with some of the sighthound breeds, you do need to embrace positive training and I wasn't going to go there! I'm here now tho', so I am convinced the reason Afghans have a reputation as stupid is because the vast majority of them just cannot work with an aversive only program and learn. I don't rule out a well timed and serious correction, we have used them from time to time on both the Aff and the Salukis, but you can't, imo, use them as a regular part of the learning and training program itself or a they will shut down very fast.

Edit: I was just pondering this, and realised that while I have used verbal corrections, I have not used leash corrections. I'm such a hippy ;-)

I'd sooner own a Saluki or an Afghan than a BC tho', I like that my dogs are lazy bastards and I don't constantly have to give them new and interesting jobs to do.

Edited October 12, 2007 by anita

[Guest Dianne]

Hi just got me latest copy of Dogs Vic magazine and read the article on dog training. What do people think of these articles. I have found several things in them that made me cringe to be frank. Last month it was the comment that people in the UK have found they need a Border Collie to stand any chance of winning Obedience tests (what are all their other dogs stupid or something over there?LOL).

This month, I was surprised to read the totally negative attitude towards motivational training, both with use of food rewards and also use of tug toys. It actually states 'never have a game of tug-o-war'!!!

I hope nobody takes any notice

Unfortunately they will Arya.

Our club actually sent a letter of "dismay" that they were publishing such articles, and our Chief Instructor also contacted a professional and highly qualified person in Delta to substantiate our claims.

We didn't even get a reply.

SAD SAD....but what else do you expect.

[fido666]

When I first started training and trialling in obedience the books by the author of those articles were our "bible", the methods he uses were the ones we were taught at dog club. They might not be the most modern ways but that doesn't mean they are wrong. The methods of training back then were fairly universal, I trained using them and competed at trial level.

If certain training methods work for you and your breed you will use them. I use motivational training methods as well but they just don't work with some dogs. One school of thought in particular is very food reward oriented, just doesn't work if the dog isn't food motivated.

The author of the articles has been using those methods for many many years, it's what he knows. I've been to one of his workshops, some time ago of course, but I thought he was very good at the time. Each of us makes a judgment on our training methods, it can be highly subjective. As with most things read in magazines it should be judged with a balanced view, it's up to us how we use the information.

Cheers,

Corine

Edited for spelling.

Edited October 12, 2007 by fido666

[Erny]

Good post, Fido666.

I don't think it is in the best interests of training in general if different views on training cannot be written about. It is up to the reader to digest, discuss and/or decide whether the methodology written of is suitable to them .... and/or to take snippets from it to apply within their own methodologies, if appropriate to the individual dog and situation. Without all views being able to be published and read, we will favour only that which we are allowed to know of ...... and that would be a belief system based in ignorance, rather than broad-minded knowledge.

And this is not because I favour the non-use of motivational positive methods - to the contrary, I use them frequently and whenever possible, combined with other applications as necessary, to suit the dog and the purpose. I like to hear and read of the various methods tried and practiced by others. It prompts further thought and consideration - even if it only brings to bear and confirm my faith in other methods/combo of methods.

Edited October 12, 2007 by Erny

[helen]

WooHoo, finally got my Vicdog today. Didn't rush to read the article though (haven't read any since the 1st one to be honest)

[Kelpie-i]

Wanders in to thread..... Definately agree you HAVE to have a BC ..... runs very quickly away.....

How about a Working Kelpie....it will do the exact opposite to what you want it to do because it thinks it knows better

[Kelpie-i]

Naughty Victoria Stillwell..... using tug of war to distract the aggressive dog from other dogs.....tst tst

[Pippi]

Naughty Victoria Stillwell..... using tug of war to distract the aggressive dog from other dogs.....tst tst

Yeh, looked as though it was working quite well too, funny about that................

[Arya]

Wanders in to thread..... Definately agree you HAVE to have a BC ..... runs very quickly away.....

How about a Working Kelpie....it will do the exact opposite to what you want it to do because it thinks it knows better

GSDs... they THINK TOO MUCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If only my dog would stop thinking for a bit and start paying attention to ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[zoezoom]

A highly respected obedience trial instructor mentioned the other day that she can always tell the dogs that are positively trained and those that are not. I couldn't agree more. Just look at all the happy, dogs with tails waving high and eager to work - I guarantee these are the dogs that have been positively trained.

I have trained dogs in the old fashioned compulsive way in the dim and distant past because that was being advocated by obedience clubs at that time. Now, however any dog club that hasn't progressed to "positive" training is well and truly behind the times.

I am perplexed that VicDog publishes these articles as I understood that the VCA encourages obedience clubs to convert to positive methods.

I would never return to the bad old days and am thoroughly enjoying "positively" training my dog to levels of obedience that I know I would never have achieved with the old regime.

[leopuppy04]

A highly respected obedience trial instructor mentioned the other day that she can always tell the dogs that are positively trained and those that are not. I couldn't agree more. Just look at all the happy, dogs with tails waving high and eager to work - I guarantee these are the dogs that have been positively trained.

I have trained dogs in the old fashioned compulsive way in the dim and distant past because that was being advocated by obedience clubs at that time. Now, however any dog club that hasn't progressed to "positive" training is well and truly behind the times.

I am perplexed that VicDog publishes these articles as I understood that the VCA encourages obedience clubs to convert to positive methods.

I would never return to the bad old days and am thoroughly enjoying "positively" training my dog to levels of obedience that I know I would never have achieved with the old regime.

:rolleyes: Hiya ZZ

Couldn't agree more with this.... mind you - some of the traditionally trained dogs are quite happy in the ring too.... but I guess that is because the negatives are met with a positive etc,etc.

Welcome to the forum

[Arya]

Actually, I do wonder sometimes what people think when I train my dog with a bit of hose as I truly have seen a couple of people frown at me, as if I am a cruel trainer. Do they think I beat her with her prey item??? If I did, do they think she'd leap up to grab it Do they think I'm encouraging viciousness by letting her tug, pull and stand up on my chest with it? It's the most positive form of training I've seen :rolleyes: But yep, I guess everyone has different ideas and what works for them works for them.

[Tangwyn]

you know what I would like to see? Dogs in Open with no collar on at all. It has to be removed and handed to the steward with the lead.

I agree completely. In fact, unless the dog is being worked on lead I would like to see the collar removed completely at any level of obedience competition. It is a training aid which I have seen utilised in between exercises without penalty from the judge.

Can anyone provide an explanation for why the collar is left on the dog for off lead work?

[Arya]

you know what I would like to see? Dogs in Open with no collar on at all. It has to be removed and handed to the steward with the lead.

I agree completely. In fact, unless the dog is being worked on lead I would like to see the collar removed completely at any level of obedience competition. It is a training aid which I have seen utilised in between exercises without penalty from the judge.

Can anyone provide an explanation for why the collar is left on the dog for off lead work?

I don't really know but I'm guessing it's because you have always got that slight risk of the dog nicking off out of the ring and then someone has to catch it with no collar LOL. So I reckon, just personally, that maybe it would be better for Open and above rather than Novice... though I must say I've seen UD dogs nicking off out of the ring plenty times... specially when they are being a bit clever and doing an 'extended seek back' if you know what I mean he he.