Um, Anyone Read The Series Of Articles In Dogs Vic Magazine?

[poodlefan]

TH:

I will give you an example......I know a woman with a little Terrier cross who completely rules her, it savages her even in the face when sitting in her lap(where he demands to be most of the time)........she sucks and crawls with food rewards to this dog ALL the time ...and he clearly sees her as a subordinate who feeds the pack leader.....HIM.

And I'll give you an example. Sue Hogben. She uses positive methods, a lot of food to train and can pull off brilliant obedience scores with highly motivated dogs.. and not a piece of food in sight.

Shit trainers use all kinds of methods but it doesn't automatically follow that the methods are also shit.

Edited October 11, 2007 by poodlefan

[Tapferhund]

OMG PF.....who said the method was shit?????????? I DIDN'T......and BTW the woman I gave as an example is not a trainer........but typical Jane Public

[Kelpie-i]

Perhaps when you have trained as many dogs for Guides ,Armed Forces and Police as MT has .....you will be able to question his methods with more authority.

TH, just because someone has trained military dogs, doesn't mean they can train the average family pet. Military dogs are purpose bred with hard nerves and high drives and can usually take more work and punishment than the average pet dog. This comment is unfair and has nothing to do with any trainer's credentials and ability to train dogs.

I train and work Working Kelpies, this does not make me an expert in training and working Search and Rescue dogs.

[Arya]

Actually, the person I would love to have comment on this but no doubt because he is in NSW he wouldn't have read the articles, is K9 of course!!! I just was worried when I read :

'Never have a game of tug of war. True, the dog will enjoy it, BUT this can incite the dog to pull the object, whatever it may be, away from you and run off with it. The dog has then become the boss and won't let you have the object.'

That is an exact quote from the article.

Now: incite the dog to pull the object away from you. So???? The dog has then become the boss. Really???? Funny, thought tug was good predatory behaviour, just waiting to be moulded by the clever trainer into something highly enjoyable for both dog and trainer.

At times I have had this comment that it is bad to teach your dog to tug. I have been told it will make dogs 'vicious'. I have seen people turn and leave my area of the park when they see my shepherd standing right up at shoulder height tugging for all her might and pulling against me with her hose, in a state of rapture!!! If they only knew she can't even see them she is in such a good place, having such a great time. And when we stop, we stop.

I feel very sad that parts of his article, such as number 2, perpetuate this sort of myth that it's bad to play games like that. And that's what it does, perpetuate incorrect myths and makes dog training less fun for dogs and trainers both who are misinformed.

In saying that, each person has their own views on training and if that is his, well, it is kind of his loss imho. Other stuff he says like what Tapferhund pointed out about the meat is motivational. So why has he written what he has written in the article?

Methinks they need some other writers for DogsVic mag.

[poodlefan]

OMG PF.....who said the method was shit?????????? I DIDN'T......and BTW the woman I gave as an example is not a trainer........but typical Jane Public

If you own a dog and try to modify its behaviour TH, in my view that makes you a trainer. It doesn't make you a professional one. I'm sorry if you inferred you said it was shit.. .but it's a bad example of the application of a sound principle.

As I was saying earlier in this thread, the way to judge a method is to see it used successfully. Shovelling food down a dog to placate it is no more a good example of "positive motivational training" than kicking the shite out of one or stringing it up is a good example of the appropriate application of an aversive.

IMHO, we spend far too much time looking at the extremes or ineffective uses of dog training methods when there is actually a middle ground between them. Do I think I could learn from Michael Tucker.. hell yeah. I'd like to think he'd still be able to learn from others too.

Edited October 11, 2007 by poodlefan

[Kelpie-i]

IMHO, we spend far too much time looking at the extremes or ineffective uses of dog training methods when there is actually a middle ground between them. Do I think I could learn from Michael Tucker.. hell yeah. I'd like to think he'd still be able to learn from others too.

Bravo PF...wel put.

[Tapferhund]

"I train and work Working Kelpies, this does not make me an expert in training and working Search and Rescue dogs."

Yes...but I bet you would make comment on their methods of training.

BTW...just because dogs in the general community are considered by you as "average pet dogs" doesn't mean they ALL have "average" soft easy going temperaments.........MANY have been "purpose bred" with hard nerves and high drives too.

[poodlefan]

BTW...just because dogs in the general community are considered by you as "average pet dogs" doesn't mean they ALL have "average" soft easy going temperaments.........MANY have been "purpose bred" with hard nerves and high drives too.

And many find their way to the pound.. .way too much dog for most families. A dog that like that requires serious effort to train.. or it's going to be a handful.

[Tapferhund]

IMHO, we spend far too much time looking at the extremes or ineffective uses of dog training methods when there is actually a middle ground between them. Do I think I could learn from Michael Tucker.. hell yeah. I'd like to think he'd still be able to learn from others too.

EXACTLY PF ! Spot on !

[Kelpie-i]

Yes...but I bet you would make comment on their methods of training.

TH, how dare you make such an assumption. There have been many threads here about S&R topics and if you'd care to do a search, you will NOT find my name in any of the posts. I do not comment on that which I don't know.

I didn't want to get into a slagging match and unfortunately this is what it has turned out to be.

If you wish to discuss techniques, you're more than welcome, otherwise I'm over this useless banter.

[PAX]

IMHO, we spend far too much time looking at the extremes or ineffective uses of dog training methods when there is actually a middle ground between them. Do I think I could learn from Michael Tucker.. hell yeah. I'd like to think he'd still be able to learn from others too.

EXACTLY PF ! Spot on !

But couild TH learn from the likes of Sue Hogben?

[Erny]

When we went to our local obedience club they told us to never get into a tug of war with our dog, and if we do, make sure that we win so that the dog doesn't become dominant.

I'm only guessing here, but I can't help thinking that this little piece of advice might have been borne by a person relating the situation of "tug" to a dog with existing problems (or more particularly to an owner with existing problems :wink:) ................... and from there the doctrine has escalated. I think with the more commonly held view of the owner instigating and ending the game and being in control of valuable resources, it really doesn't matter so much.

[Tapferhund]

Pax, nothing new or especially different about SH.......her 'teachings' are the same ..she spouts the same as the rest of us.

Edited October 11, 2007 by Tapferhund

[leopuppy04]

IMHO, we spend far too much time looking at the extremes or ineffective uses of dog training methods when there is actually a middle ground between them. Do I think I could learn from Michael Tucker.. hell yeah. I'd like to think he'd still be able to learn from others too.

Bravo PF...wel put.

I second that - very well put. How many times do we hear of ppl complaining about aversives because they saw a dog corrected into the middle of next week?? Not the norm.

How many times have we heard people complain about positive training because there are no consequences?? Not the norm again. Simply because you don't "Ahh" the dog or "correct" it doesn't mean there aren't 'consequences' IMO - but there will be a minor group who DO give no consequences, but these people are not the norm.

With all this constant bantering of training methods, I really feel we have a very confused public out there - some who are afraid to raise their voice to their dogs, some who are so confused they simply don't know where to tread.... which can be quite detrimental to the dog and family.

JMHO

[Henrietta]

This has been a very interesting threaed, I have enjoyed reading it.

Although I have never read VIcDog, it sounds very old school, very biased and very damning of anything alternative than what it recommends.

LOL never play tug with your dog... I have been playing tug with my dogs since they were pups, great motivational tool - they love it! Yes, if you have an existing dominance issue than it may not be a good idea, but for your average dog, I see no problems.

[Cosmolo]

I think your right LP- i often talk to people who are surprised when i talk about manual handling of puppies and are quite hesitant to begin with. I don't think we have to be extremists- i use aversives at times, train in drive, food rewards etc

[Pippi]

This has been a very interesting threaed, I have enjoyed reading it.

Although I have never read VIcDog, it sounds very old school, very biased and very damning of anything alternative than what it recommends.

I am not going to get into the training debate in this thread but I would like to just clarify something for those who do not live in Victoria and may not be familiar with the magazine in question.

1.The publication is known as Dogs Victoria, previously known as VicDog

2. The publication is a monthly magazine for the members of Dogs Victoria, previously known as VCA (Victorian Canine Association)

3. The posts are referring to one training article written by 1 single trainer's views for the magazine, they are not referring to the publication itself.

[Natsu chan]

I don't really want to get into this either, different styles of training work for different dog/ handler combinations. What works best is best for that combination.

The articles in question are here:

http://www.vca.org.au/Content.asp?ID=194

Minus the diagrams. Personally I found them interesting, and the foot work for the finish helpful. There's always something you can learn from other peoples methods it's up to you to find out what that is.

[kelpiechick]

How many times have we heard people complain about positive training because there are no consequences?? Not the norm again. Simply because you don't "Ahh" the dog or "correct" it doesn't mean there aren't 'consequences' IMO - but there will be a minor group who DO give no consequences, but these people are not the norm.

With all this constant bantering of training methods, I really feel we have a very confused public out there - some who are afraid to raise their voice to their dogs, some who are so confused they simply don't know where to tread.... which can be quite detrimental to the dog and family.

True, but I still think there is also confusion among trainers in regard to how we 'label' ourselves and this plays a big part in these debates becoming 'inflamed'.

eg: what is considered 'purely positive' by one person is not the same as how another sees it.

what is seen as a 'correction' by one person is not seen as a correction by another.

Maybe labelling ourselves as a particular type of trainer creates a stereotyped image in the eyes of another.

Not sure as to how there can ever be 'no consequences' with positive training?

Does that mean if you were giving no consequences, then everything would be rewarded whether it was the behaviour you were shaping or not?

Wouldn't withholding the reward for incorrect performance be considered a consequence?

(Based on the premise that behaviour that is rewarded continues, behaviour not rewarded extinguishes)

[Keshwar]

I don't really want to get into this either, different styles of training work for different dog/ handler combinations. What works best is best for that combination.

The articles in question are here:

http://www.vca.org.au/Content.asp?ID=194

Minus the diagrams. Personally I found them interesting, and the foot work for the finish helpful. There's always something you can learn from other peoples methods it's up to you to find out what that is.

Thanks for posting that link. I just read all the articles. Is there stuff in there that I'd use? Yup! Is there stuff in them that I wouldn't use? Yup!

Like all good training books/articles I think it is important to read with an open mind, take what you can use and ignore the rest. Hopefully by doing this we can all become better trainers/handlers/instructors.

Edited to add: I train an Afghan Hound and a Saluki so I'm always looking for alternative methods of training that may work with these "hard to train" breeds.

JMHO.

Bear.

Edited October 12, 2007 by FaxonandBear