Reddii Posted October 2, 2007 Share Posted October 2, 2007 (edited) We've just started to get CK into herding and he's coming along OK, but is really soft and needs heaps of encouragement to stay one the job. (Week 1 I had to pry him out from under the gate because he was scared of the sheep and was trying to escape! ) Wondering if anyone can help with a couple of questions........ 1. How long do you think I should perservere with him before calling it quits and concentrating on agility and flyball - he's only just begun these in the last fortnight, but LOVES the training. We've only done 3 herding sessions, but he is still quite tentative, although last night was beginning to 'see' the sheep rather than just run blindly around/away from them. To qualify this - it is only 3 lessons, but I guess I'm comparing him to our psycho working lines bitch that has been a handful since the first 5 minutes and is already in the big yard working the sheep. 2. Do you have any ideas for getting a very laid back dog more excited about working? He is REALLY excited and wants to get into the yard, but once he's in there he quietens right down - still plenty of eye on the sheep, but unless there is a lot of movement he's not that interested and switches off. Perhaps it is a case of needing more stimulation and a more challenging job rather than being quite high in the mind and keeping himself excited? Thanks in advance. Tony Edited November 5, 2007 by Reddii Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perry's Mum Posted October 2, 2007 Share Posted October 2, 2007 how long are your sessions? We do weekends with about 4 or 5 15 minute goes on the sheep and I have seen some timid dogs take 4 or 5 weekends to get turned on. I would keep on going - I think you have to make it lively and interesting for him - lots of encouraging noise and get the sheep moving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reddii Posted October 2, 2007 Author Share Posted October 2, 2007 how long are your sessions? We do weekends with about 4 or 5 15 minute goes on the sheep and I have seen some timid dogs take 4 or 5 weekends to get turned on. I would keep on going - I think you have to make it lively and interesting for him - lots of encouraging noise and get the sheep moving. 4 sessions of about 5 to 7 minutes to begin with, but back to 3 or 4 minutes by the last one - once he begins sniffing the ground I'll pull him up. Last night I was jumping around like an idiot and this did help to a degree - he's ultra keen to get in the yard and works really well for a couple of minutes, then seems to switch off. He is a lot better/keener when I can get the sheep to move, but they are so well trained that that is not easy! The other thing that I forgot to mention that might be affecting him is a lack of condition, although this doesn't seem like a lot of work. After 6 months of being allowed to do nothing but walk we've finally got the all clear for him to begin running around and working (play, not real working dog work) We've got a full day this Saturday so it will be interesting to see how he goes there. Eric who owns the sheep and trains us has suggested I keep going and will end up with a thinking dog who will have good feel for the sheep, but may not be a strong as some others. I thought I'd seek out some other opinions/experiences. Cheers. Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
t(AD)pole Posted October 2, 2007 Share Posted October 2, 2007 Maybe try having an experienced dog in with him? Keep sessions short and finish while he's showing interest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vickie Posted October 3, 2007 Share Posted October 3, 2007 1.How long do you think I should perservere with him before calling it quits Novice disclaimer... 3 times is not much, I would keep going but just be careful that he is not in a situation where the sheep are taking him on. I don't think a bit of a break does them any harm either. I called it quits with 2 dogs, neither had much instinct, one had little interest & the other was too hard on the sheep. I don't regret it & know it was the right thing to do, for the dogs & the sheep. 2.Do you have any ideas for getting a very laid back dog more excited about working? He is REALLY excited and wants to get into the yard, but once he's in there he quietens right down - still plenty of eye on the sheep, but unless there is a lot of movement he's not that interested and switches off. Perhaps it is a case of needing more stimulation and a more challenging job rather than being quite high in the mind and keeping himself excited? Sounds like he has instinct but is a bit unsure & there's not enough going on to keep him stimulated. Training sheep can be very intimidating for young dogs, he sounds like he needs some wins. Is there anywhere you can take him where the sheep are not quite so used to dogs & where you can find some jobs for him to do? What size area is he in currently? He may free up a bit in a larger area? I always find my dogs do their best work when we have a job to do, even something as simple as moving sheep from a yard to a paddock & back again, mostly becasue it gives me soemthing to do (rather than standing in the middle looking like an idiot ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reddii Posted October 3, 2007 Author Share Posted October 3, 2007 1.How long do you think I should perservere with him before calling it quits Novice disclaimer... 3 times is not much, I would keep going but just be careful that he is not in a situation where the sheep are taking him on. I don't think a bit of a break does them any harm either. I called it quits with 2 dogs, neither had much instinct, one had little interest & the other was too hard on the sheep. I don't regret it & know it was the right thing to do, for the dogs & the sheep. 2.Do you have any ideas for getting a very laid back dog more excited about working? He is REALLY excited and wants to get into the yard, but once he's in there he quietens right down - still plenty of eye on the sheep, but unless there is a lot of movement he's not that interested and switches off. Perhaps it is a case of needing more stimulation and a more challenging job rather than being quite high in the mind and keeping himself excited? Sounds like he has instinct but is a bit unsure & there's not enough going on to keep him stimulated. Training sheep can be very intimidating for young dogs, he sounds like he needs some wins. Is there anywhere you can take him where the sheep are not quite so used to dogs & where you can find some jobs for him to do? What size area is he in currently? He may free up a bit in a larger area? I always find my dogs do their best work when we have a job to do, even something as simple as moving sheep from a yard to a paddock & back again, mostly becasue it gives me soemthing to do (rather than standing in the middle looking like an idiot ) Thanks Vickie 1. Your 'novice disclaimer' has hit the nail on the head for both me and him! so I'm not panicking (how do you spell that?) just yet. 2. I think you are spot on with the 'bored' thing. I've been working really hard this week to work out what turns him on (as opposed to working him hard) and it is as simple as movement (given that squeaky toys aren't really the go in herding ). He's only in the small yard and the sheep just tend to follow the handler around - very well trained. In the larger yard where the sheep aren't quite so well trained and do move a bit I think he might be a bit more interested. When he 'stops' at present he will come right up to the sheep and to my very inexperienced eye is trying to get them to move, but isn't sure how to do it. He's got the hang of walking around the sheep, but is just bored. Sadly I'm a city boy and don't have anywhere other than Monday nights to go and practice with the dogs. Same with the agility basics we are working on. If I try and lure him around a stick or through 2 weavers or on to a contact plank then he's not interested, but if I'm really full on with his toy and heaps of movement he's really in to it. I think it might just be a case of the light bulb coming on and him realising hey, if I do this I'll have even more fun. We have a full day clinic on Saturday (betting CK will be crashed out by lunch time and little girl will still be sooking when I drag her away at 5pm or whenever it finishes). so I'll have a chat to Eric about getting him into a bigger area where the sheep are moving to see how he goes. He won't nip at the sheep so even if he gets a bit silly it shouldn't be a problem. After putting a lot of thought and a bit of work into it in the last couple of days I think the biggest challenge I've got with him is my expectation. My older dog (still only 16 months) is a complete high drive nut and the biggest challenge is slowing her down to think enough to get the job done. This works really well for me and my personality, but CK who needs revving up is a bit more of a challenge as I'm not that over the top. Will report back after the weekend. Cheers. Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vickie Posted October 3, 2007 Share Posted October 3, 2007 Thanks Vickie1. Your 'novice disclaimer' has hit the nail on the head for both me and him! so I'm not panicking (how do you spell that?) just yet. The Novice Disclaimer was about me, not you. I just meant that I have limited experience with herding and am no expert...so am just stating things I have experienced & been told. 2. I think you are spot on with the 'bored' thing. I've been working really hard this week to work out what turns him on (as opposed to working him hard) and it is as simple as movement (given that squeaky toys aren't really the go in herding ). He's only in the small yard and the sheep just tend to follow the handler around - very well trained. In the larger yard where the sheep aren't quite so well trained and do move a bit I think he might be a bit more interested. When he 'stops' at present he will come right up to the sheep and to my very inexperienced eye is trying to get them to move, but isn't sure how to do it. He's got the hang of walking around the sheep, but is just bored. As a novice handler, one of the mistakes I have made is not moving enough myself & have often been told to keep moving to give my dogs somewhere to bring the sheep. I always found this hard in a very small area, it is much easier in a bigger area where I can pick points to walk to. The other advice that has been useful is to walk through the sheep every now & then, so as to give the dog something to do to find the new balance point. Also walking around obstacles/trees, through gates etc to make the dogs have to think about where they need to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reddii Posted October 8, 2007 Author Share Posted October 8, 2007 Well, we pretty much have CK worked out. He has heaps of eye and at this stage unless the sheep are moving about feels he is doing a good job. Eric (trainer) can get him to work, but I'm having difficulty seeing the sheep and the dog all at once. I know this sounds nuts, but I can't work both just yet. He's urging me not to give up on the young man though, suggesting he has heaps of instinct for it, it's just that at this point in time he is making the decisions and I have to work on that. it should come good with time and a bit of experience for me and some more age for CK. While we are working on this I still have Xena, my little girl to have a heap of fun with. After 3 lessons and one clinic we have moved about 40 sheep out of their yard, across a small paddock and back!!! He reckons that CK has a much better feel for the stock and will be better than Xena in time, it's just going to take a bit of patience. Thanks all for your answers. Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reddii Posted November 5, 2007 Author Share Posted November 5, 2007 Thanks again to all who replied a few weeks back. Last night was our first run in a month due to various factors. CK was great. He'll never be a psycho high drive BC, but works at his own pace and very effectively. Trick is to get him 'on' the sheep. Once I do that he'll work them any where. I even broke up the sheep a couple of times and he ever so calmly grouped them back together. He gives the sheep plenty of room, but takes no rubbish from them. He puts appropriate weight on them w/o spooking them. He'll never be a world beater, but he did REALLY enjoy it last night - couldn't wait to get in there for his second run! He's really come alive in the last couple of weeks as he gets fitter and stronger and develops a bit more drive an focus as he does more work. Will be interesting to see how he progresses in the next couple of months. Cheers. Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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