Erny Posted October 26, 2007 Share Posted October 26, 2007 (edited) I didn't mean it to come out as harsh as it did, but couldn't think of a nicer way of putting it Hi S&B - it's ok. I know you meant well and with your heart in the right place (which is usually down in all our ankles when it comes to discussing possible outcomes in situations such as this). I guess I have a bit of an advantage in that RL01 and I have shared a PM or two, so I'm privvy to a bit more insight as to how much he ( :D - sorry for the earlier oops! RL01) has already gone through. Given the opinions (numerous) that RL01 has already paid for and ascertained, I'd support RL01 whatever his decision ends up being. But as he already knows, I'd be a sight more comfortable if I knew Steve K9 Force had seen the dog before any major and irreversible decision is made. I have to say that's only because I don't know the other people that RL01 has engaged in the past; I don't know RL01's dog; and I don't know RL01. But I do know Steve. Edited October 26, 2007 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Steph & Bam Posted October 27, 2007 Share Posted October 27, 2007 I didn't mean it to come out as harsh as it did, but couldn't think of a nicer way of putting it Hi S&B - it's ok. I know you meant well and with your heart in the right place (which is usually down in all our ankles when it comes to discussing possible outcomes in situations such as this). I guess I have a bit of an advantage in that RL01 and I have shared a PM or two, so I'm privvy to a bit more insight as to how much he ( - sorry for the earlier oops! RL01) has already gone through. Given the opinions (numerous) that RL01 has already paid for and ascertained, I'd support RL01 whatever his decision ends up being. But as he already knows, I'd be a sight more comfortable if I knew Steve K9 Force had seen the dog before any major and irreversible decision is made. I have to say that's only because I don't know the other people that RL01 has engaged in the past; I don't know RL01's dog; and I don't know RL01. But I do know Steve. That is a brilliant point Erny, any you definately have the upper hand! I pretty much wear my heart on my sleeve when it comes to animals of any kind, and have been very well known to blurt things out without thinking them through properly lol! RL01, Again, my apologies to you if I had offended you in any way. Respecting Erny's opinion as much as I do, I will also say go with Steve :p I plan on having a consult with him when he is up here next year as I would love his take on some of Bam's issues (mostly minor, with a big fear of chains and some men) Off Topic for a second, I had a major improvement with Bam and chains today. For the last week, I've been randomly jingling a couple of chains I've had around the house and throwing a ball for Bam at the same time.... Instead of him freaking and running he is now standing (admittedly about 15m away) and just waiting for the ball. I'm really happy that this is working, I had a thought of using his obsession to cure his fear, and it seems to be working at this stage. Just wondering though, do dogs go backwards after coming forwards? I would hate to have made this progress (HUGE for him) then go back again... I mean without human interference, he is never in a position to be treated roughly by anyone, and is crated indoors when no-one is home. Just curious about your opinion. Sorry for the hijack RL01 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted October 27, 2007 Share Posted October 27, 2007 Off Topic for a second, I had a major improvement with Bam and chains today. For the last week, I've been randomly jingling a couple of chains I've had around the house and throwing a ball for Bam at the same time.... Instead of him freaking and running he is now standing (admittedly about 15m away) and just waiting for the ball. I'm really happy that this is working, I had a thought of using his obsession to cure his fear, and it seems to be working at this stage. Just wondering though, do dogs go backwards after coming forwards? I would hate to have made this progress (HUGE for him) then go back again... ... Just curious about your opinion. Sorry for the hijack RL01 S&B - well done for your creativity and the improvement you have achieved as a result. Sometimes it is possible to detect a "backwards step" during the course of behaviour modification. Almost a 'two-steps forward, one-step back' type of progress. If what you are doing is working, don't worry about little backward steps. Just be on the look-out to detect them IF they arise. Just remember to hasten slowly and keep the intensity of the chain very low. Be patient and don't try to progress too far too fast. Be happy for the tiniest of improvements. When you think your dog might be able to cope (I have to leave this up to you to judge) you could perhaps try throwing the ball past and behind you. That way he has to run past you to go get it. This might help to combat any habit of him staying metres away from you. If you always throw the ball when he is sitting that far away, then it can evolve that he's only doing so because he's learnt at that distance he receives his reward. Is it only when the chain is in your hand when you are doing this that he reacts? What about if the chain is simply in a pocket and jingles a bit when you move around? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted October 27, 2007 Share Posted October 27, 2007 (edited) PS .... Does your dog LOVE a game of tug? If he does, could you work him in drive and WHILST in drive, work him in closer to some chains dotted here and there in the vicinity, and still whilst in drive, work him back out again before ending the game? Just a thought - if what you are already doing is progressively working, perhaps stick with it for a while. Again - need to leave this to your own judgement. Edited October 27, 2007 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Steph & Bam Posted October 27, 2007 Share Posted October 27, 2007 S&B - well done for your creativity and the improvement you have achieved as a result. Sometimes it is possible to detect a "backwards step" during the course of behaviour modification. Almost a 'two-steps forward, one-step back' type of progress.If what you are doing is working, don't worry about little backward steps. Just be on the look-out to detect them IF they arise. Just remember to hasten slowly and keep the intensity of the chain very low. Be patient and don't try to progress too far too fast. Be happy for the tiniest of improvements. When you think your dog might be able to cope (I have to leave this up to you to judge) you could perhaps try throwing the ball past and behind you. That way he has to run past you to go get it. This might help to combat any habit of him staying metres away from you. If you always throw the ball when he is sitting that far away, then it can evolve that he's only doing so because he's learnt at that distance he receives his reward. Is it only when the chain is in your hand when you are doing this that he reacts? What about if the chain is simply in a pocket and jingles a bit when you move around? PS .... Does your dog LOVE a game of tug?If he does, could you work him in drive and WHILST in drive, work him in closer to some chains dotted here and there in the vicinity, and still whilst in drive, work him back out again before ending the game? Just a thought - if what you are already doing is progressively working, perhaps stick with it for a while. Again - need to leave this to your own judgement. I'm keeping the sessions very minimal at this stage, it's twice a day for about 5 minutes, nothing more than that. I can have the chain within 2metres of my feet and he will come to me, avoiding where the chain is (he won't go near anyone else who has a chain near them so another improvement there), but when it's in my hand he seems to shut down and try to flee (thank god he isn't trying to fight!) I'm trying to combat the fear of me having a chain in my hand before introducing any one else into the equation, I'm only doing this when I'm home alone and the cat is shut away as well. He is a very fast learner so for that I am grateful. I haven't tried having the chain in a pocket so I will have to give this a go in our next session. I'm not sure if he'd cope with having to run past the chain (when jingling) to get to his ball, and I doubt he'd go after the ball in this scenario at this time. I will definately be trying it from now on. His loves are: 1. Chasing 2. Chasing 3. Me 4. Tug 5. Food (Unless fasted for a day, then this becomes a close second, still nothing as good as a chase but he wants it anyway) Now, I'm basically throwing the ball in random directions either side of him and even halfway between us (where before it was throwing over his head so he had to turn to chase it then bring it back, a seemingly compulsive behaviour for him), or making it bounce so he has to jump for it (another of his favoured tasks, I just have to watch he's not jumping too high as he doesn't have the best hips (mildest of mild HD, that may get a lot worse)) It seems that once I introduce a prey item he's fine but while he can concentrate on the chain he freaks. He is now going into his crate when he's freaking out too much which is a good thing. I usually stop before it gets to that stage, only once did I lose track of time and he bolted into his crate. I put the chains away and ignored him for a while then called him over for some pats. Oh, and at the moment it's just a cheapie choke chain that I bought from the supermarket to help with this. It was your suggestion with the food that got me thinking, so thank you very, very much Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RL1 Posted October 28, 2007 Author Share Posted October 28, 2007 I had a potentially very serious and dangerous situation this afternoon with my boy. A local male staffy, who knows my female Rotty from the off leash park made his way to my home ( 4 streets away ) and was at my front gate trying to get in, probably to have a play with her. My male Rotty got past me and ran down the driveway and hit my front closed and locked aluminium gate's and broke through. I ran after him and screamed out his name and to my absolute amazement, he stopped almost dead in his tracks and didn't so much as touch the staffy. I really thought that staffy was going to be seriously hurt or killed. The staffy ran up into my yard to see my female and my boy stayed on the footpath. I had to get my boy back up the driveway and out back without any lead or collar. ( Wasn't easy, but i did it ) At the same time a male staffy is in my boys yard......I took the staffy back to his home and put him his yard and closed the gate and left a note for my mate to ring me........Now this is proof that my dog CAN be trained. For him to burst through the gates and not touch the staffy after my scream, i think that is all the proof i need, that i've known all this time, that he CAN be trained............ After my heart slowed down and i sat down, thought about it, i'm very impressed with the way he listened to me. I honestly thought that staffy was dead......... Four trainers, no results, too hard basket, countless hundreds of dollars and suggestions of PTS the dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted October 28, 2007 Share Posted October 28, 2007 RL01 ... Well! I bet you've had enough of an adrenalin rush to last you for a while!!! As I was reading it I too was thinking "there is hope". What are your plans? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rom Posted October 28, 2007 Share Posted October 28, 2007 Phew! Despite your fright RLO1, I'm feeling really happy for you....light at the end of the tunnel, eh? It's probably a big ask since you've been through so much with your dog, but I was wondering what types of things the trainers that you have seen have suggested (apart from PTS) that didn't work or have proven ineffective? I ask cuz I'm interested in learning and understanding all about aggression and I understand if there's too much to answer . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RL1 Posted October 28, 2007 Author Share Posted October 28, 2007 RL01 ... Well! I bet you've had enough of an adrenalin rush to last you for a while!!! As I was reading it I too was thinking "there is hope". What are your plans? I'm still letting my heart get back to normal. It all happened so fast and i didn't have time to think. I thought the worst for the staffy though. My plans are to not waste another dollar on anymore dog trainers up here. The only one i'm willing to try is this K9 Force center down in NSW. I'll have to have a chat to the trainer/owner sometime and see what he says. Although I believe there are no available appointments left this year. There is hope, i'm sure of it. I think todays experience backed that up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RL1 Posted October 28, 2007 Author Share Posted October 28, 2007 Phew! Despite your fright RLO1, I'm feeling really happy for you....light at the end of the tunnel, eh?It's probably a big ask since you've been through so much with your dog, but I was wondering what types of things the trainers that you have seen have suggested (apart from PTS) that didn't work or have proven ineffective? I ask cuz I'm interested in learning and understanding all about aggression and I understand if there's too much to answer . Yea i believe there is light at the end of the tunnel, i just haven't taken the right turn yet........... The main problem is every trainer has a different idea and one says something and another says the complete opposite. For example, to walk him i was told to use a choker chain, another said use a halti for better control of his head when he spots another dog. Then the next guy says no way, a halti has no control over a large dog like mine Another says he's not suitable for a domestic dog, told me he's a serious legal risk and offered nothing more............ You know the thing that gets me, when the breeder first took him back from the original owners, she even showed him twice and he behaved ( he even received a V rating which she says was great ) .I took him to the breeders property a few months back and her daughter jumped in the ute and was all over him and he loved it. Personally i didn't agree with her doing that. I just give up. They all have different ideas, none of which help or they have no idea at all, or just tell me in a nice way to get rid of him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted October 28, 2007 Share Posted October 28, 2007 The only one i'm willing to try is this K9 Force center down in NSW. I am certain you won't have any regrets. Although I believe there are no available appointments left this year. There's only about 8 weeks or so of "this year" left. It's not as far off as it might sound. (Which, conversely, is pretty scarey when you think how close Xmas is! ...... ) There is hope, i'm sure of it. I think todays experience backed that up. I truley keep my fingers crossed for you both. You're dedicated to trying to work through this if you can find a way. Good luck. Keep safe in the meantime. PS - Don't forget to keep us informed ...................................... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarah L Posted October 28, 2007 Share Posted October 28, 2007 (edited) RLO1 I commend you for your hard work and dedication. I am sure you will have success. It is great to see someone so dedicated towards their dog as you are. No matter how many bad trainers you have gone through. Edited October 28, 2007 by pinnacle dts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokeysue Posted October 28, 2007 Share Posted October 28, 2007 Rottylover01, have you looked at the breed sub forum, Rottys? We are just Rottys here. Not sure of how old your dog is, but surely there is some way to calm and train this dog. Surely you can find one trainer who is dedicated enough to spend time with your dog to give you some hope without paying thu the nose. Patience and love goes a long way too, also domination. You must be boss. I really hope all goes well. I would give K9 a go tho. He is great. Sue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carloslex Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 hi, i have been itching for the next update from Rottielov01, how are they progressing? did you manage to go and see Steve yet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 K9: I can update you from my side, we havent had any sessions nor have any bookings made with RL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carloslex Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 Bummer, that concerns me, hope all is okay, has anyone heard if things are still going okay for him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 K9: It seems that he has had a bit of a hard time with trainers, so I can understand him being hesitant in making the trip... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carloslex Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 Yes I read that he has had a few problems, the biggest problem with any sort of training as I am sure you would know is owner compliance.. I have been wondering about that if he has seen,.. I think he said four trainers? and no success with any of them? 1 or two maybe three but four? If you have read my posts I used a trainer here in Brisbane for Lead aggression, the guy on the phone told me before I even booked that I would need at least three seesions over a a month or so to get results and that If I wasn't prepard to comit to that then please don't book with him at all as we wouldn't get the full results,. As it turned out I only needed two sessions to get things under control, but I did the third just to make sure for myself. In the first visit we only worked in the back yard and he gave me stuff to do before he came back, and then we would take the dog out, after that first session I must admit initially I had a bit of doubt, but not after the second time he came. It has taken a lot of ongoing work to keep things right but Im over the moon with the results. hopefully rottielover01 hasn't given up and is going to follow through with you, or finds someone good that can help him, if Sydney is too far for him do you know of anyone here (Bris) that may be able to help? I have heard of Martin Dominic at K9 Centre is very good, is ex airforce trainer etc.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RL1 Posted January 21, 2008 Author Share Posted January 21, 2008 hi, i have been itching for the next update from Rottielov01, how are they progressing? did you manage to go and see Steve yet? no i haven't, i did send him an email but i haven't progressed further as yet K9: I can update you from my side, we havent had any sessions nor have any bookings made with RL that's true Bummer, that concerns me, hope all is okay, has anyone heard if things are still going okay for him? No progress i'm afraid, i've sort of taken a break after seeing The Pawman last year. K9: It seems that he has had a bit of a hard time with trainers, so I can understand him being hesitant in making the trip... I was seriously thinking about the trip late last year but obviously you were fully booked out and also i didn't want to make a booking unless i was 100% sure i would make the trip. Yes I read that he has had a few problems, the biggest problem with any sort of training as I am sure you would know is owner compliance.. I have been wondering about that if he has seen,.. I think he said four trainers? and no success with any of them? 1 or two maybe three but four? hopefully rottielover01 hasn't given up and is going to follow through with you, or finds someone good that can help him, if Sydney is too far for him do you know of anyone here (Bris) that may be able to help? I have heard of Martin Dominic at K9 Centre is very good, is ex airforce trainer etc.... No problem with owner compliance here. I've done everything the trainers have told me, except the PTS one. Yes, i've tried home visits, a club and even left the dog for over a week for live in training.( Four trainers all up ) I even gave up my only morning off, and took him up to a club at Caboolture every Sunday morning. The Pawman is a RAAF trainer with 30 years experience, i'm not going to try another one..................... I've been thinking lately about getting back into it and trying one more time. A lot of people here have recommended Jane Harper, I don't know, might be worth a shot.......... Can someone convince K9 Force to move to Queensland ??....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrunoBella Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 A lot of people here have recommended Jane Harper, I don't know, might be worth a shot.......... Can someone convince K9 Force to move to Queensland ??....... I tried that but he wouldn't budge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts