How To Break Obsessive Behaviour

[dogdayz]

My weim has long been bird killer around the yard, however some misguided pair of indian mynahs decided to nest in the tree in the backyard. I only discovered this about two weeks ago when my weim became obsessed with staring at, climbing and tearing branches off the tree. After a week we found the nest didnto have young or eggs in it so removed it...and let him see us remove it (okay i know the birdlovers would hate me for doing that, but they seriously werent going to live long).

He is obsessed to the point he now has to be fed meals indoors because if his food is outside as usual he doesnt bother to eat (not a good idea when living with a food orientated collie), but also whenever outside he is so engrossed by the tree he is not toiletting. Only when brought inside does he think to toilet....this is a dog that has always been house clean. My dogs are generally inside dogs, but get plenty of exercise and stimulation with obedience, tracking and walking. I took him out yesterday and ran him to the point he would no longer chase a ball, but still as soon as he got home he was back to the tree. Have tried distracting him to no avail, have called him away but as soon as he reaches you he turns and sprints back to the tree. Have tried to do obedience exercise with him but he constatly tries to get back to tree. he has never shown this type of obsessive behaviour before.

Any ideas, it has gone on too long already and i dont want it becoming ingrained any further.

[Mushaka]

I had this problem with Lewis when we moved the Guinea pigs outside.

He pushed his nose so hard up to the cage he cut his nose on the chicken wire.

I was nearly at my wits end when i thought hang on.. here...this is MY house bucko.

So each time i saw him heading to the cage i was in waiting...i had a rolled up newspaper and BANG,against the wall,and yelled ''BAHH".When he stopped and headed back towards me,of course he was rewarded.

I even used water at one point. Sneakin up behind him and SPLASH!

I just kept at it for maybe a day or two,..now he doesnt even look sideways at the cage.

P.s..i HATE those darn minor birds GGRRRRRRRR

[Arya]

Okay, behaviourists will have better suggestions (Erny?) but don't worry about the Mynahs, they are a plague and annoying birds LOL. BUT, I would try to condition your weim onto something else that he values so much you can use it in front of the tree. It's a bit of a long shot but it works with my girl, who hates magpies and will go them no matter what. I know you use ball but how about ball on a rope or string right in front of the tree? If he likes it, how about getting one of those Aussie Dog things, I think they are a ball you tie to the tree and the dogs play iwth them when you are not home. THey are specially designed for this. Called home alone ball or something. Then his focus will go off the mynahs and onto his toy that is attached to the tree if you can up the toy's value sufficiently. and maybe all the activity would keep the pesky mynahs away too???

That's just a left of centre idea that I can think of, without resorting to more aversive techniques like collars etc.

[dogdayz]

Thanks for the suggestions, i tried water spray and banging at the start of this, as he is a soft dog and generally just a 'ah' is enough to stop him doing anything.

Have tried distraction as in all manner of toys etc, and the other dog has been trying to get him to play too and nothing is as good as the tree.

Obedience wise he will recall from it first call, and he can do a stay at a distance from it (albeit craning his neck in all directions to watch the tree), problem is as soon as you release him he runs straigt to tree ignoring any toy or food you may have...so its pretty much become his reward so have given it up. For him to ignore food is a pretty big thing as he has pancreatic insufficiency so generally believes he is starved and is very food motivated.

On the plus side we have gone 12 hours with a clean floor so hopefully thats a sign of some improvement.

[Vickie]

A hard one...

I'm not a fan of aversives in this situation b/c whenever you're not there he can still practice this behaviour & find it rewarding, so the ratio would not be high enough.

Is he at the point where as soon as he is let outside, he runs straight to the tree? If so, this would be the first part to work on IMO. I would not pander to him by feeding him inside & would use this as an opportunity.

What would happen if you left him inside & went out & put his food down so he could see you doing it. Maybe divide his food into 5-6 portions? Then let him out & if he runs past the food, ignore him & 15 minutes later remove the food. Same thing the next day & the next etc until he was hungry enough to eat outside & to go straight to the food before the tree.

I had to do this once & it took 5 days, but our issues were completely solved at the end of it.

I guess cutting the tree down is not an option?

Edited September 29, 2007 by Vickie

[Mushaka]

Well it worked very well for me. But Lewis is very HIGH PRAISE driven. SO once he makes boo boo's he is desperate to correct.

Im in flame mode here wen i say this,but sometimes,as with unruly kiddies these days,i worry that the "softly softly" approach just isnt getting thru to our dogs. Could this account for recent upsurge in publicly announced poor behaviours in bigger breeds?

ETA,try these tactic when u have a weekend at home.

Edited September 29, 2007 by Lewis & Lyn

[Erny]

Hi Dogdayz. What is the longest period of time that you've left your dog in the yard (without going out there to interrupt him) and where he has "obsessed" without a break?

Oh - and if it's definately "Indian" Minahs ..... I wouldn't worry either - they are definately pests.

But if they are "Noisy" Minahs - they are natives. Some people don't like the Noisies ..... but I think they are full of character.

ETA: Highlighted .... because conversation wavered and continued - and I didn't want you to miss my question, DD.

Edited September 29, 2007 by Erny

[Mushaka]

damn indians swoop me while i walk the dogs. I have to DRIVE to Cronulla and walk along the wall to be sure i can be swoop free

[Erny]

damn indians swoop me while i walk the dogs. I have to DRIVE to Cronulla and walk along the wall to be sure i can be swoop free

Oh? I know the noisies will 'swoop' ESPECIALLY if you are unfamiliar to them. (They can be great 'watch dogs' - ours used to let us know when a stranger walked into the property, or when a snake was around.) But I've never had 'indians' swoop me.

[Mushaka]

ok i hate all those lil swoopers.

Can handle a maggie or two though.

I reckon i gotz issues lol

[Erny]

For some reason I find that birds (including maggies) don't swoop me ..... but they will swoop others. Only very rarely do I get swooped.

Sorry to the OP for going .... just waiting your response .

[Vickie]

Well it worked very well for me. But Lewis is very HIGH PRAISE driven. SO once he makes boo boo's he is desperate to correct.

Im in flame mode here wen i say this,but sometimes,as with unruly kiddies these days,i worry that the "softly softly" approach just isnt getting thru to our dogs. Could this account for recent upsurge in publicly announced poor behaviours in bigger breeds?

ETA,try these tactic when u have a weekend at home.

L&L, not sure if you're responding to me but I'm not suggesting a "softly softly" approach, nor was I commenting on what you did or it's effectiveness.

What I am saying is that a behaviour that is self rewarding & obsessive is very difficult to extinguish with intermittent aversives.

eg, let's say a dog is chasing flies & finds it rewarding to the point of obsession...if the dog does this and finds it self-rewarding for 8 hours a day...10 minutes of aversive is not going to fix it. Problem with people using aversives for something like this is that half the time the dog has no idea what it is even being corrected for.

Hope this explains my post better.

[Mushaka]

Erny.Maggies have NEVA attacked me either.

Last season though before Jake my best mate ever passed away..we would walk the streets and he would just get hammered. Poor little man R.i.P Jake xooxoxox Come visit me in my dreams buddy

[dogdayz]

Straight to the tree, when inside he is constantly stood at door asking to get out, very hyped once you approach the door.

Okay will take food away if he doesnt eat straight off. Have left him out up to 4 hours at a time...he was glued to tree every time i checked, and just as hard to move back indoors. It has been suggested to leave him there until her bores of it, but i dont really like to leave him out longer unattended as we have high tiger snake population and certainly one was regularly visiting last summer.

Tree removal is a last resort as it shields us from the neighbours at the lowest point of the back fence (about 4 ft), and while he has never shown inclination to jump, when he is in full chase after a bird i wouldnt put it past him not to act first and think later.

Another suggestion has been to remove him to kennels for a week, and see if he forgets...i doubt very much this will work either...what do you think.

[persephone]

Could you put up a visual barrier? A circular/curved metal fence, so the tree "disappears" from doglevel view?

This would need to be done while he is out one day..he comes back, and the visual clues at least, are not there......

The fence would need to be well proofed against digging if he DOES realise the object of his obsession is not far away, and high enough that he cannot jump up...

Just a thought...

[dogdayz]

Thanks for the ideas...decision made; the tree will have to go.

This afternoon he had to go have surgery after skewering himself through his underbelly presumably on a stick, while hunting the tree . So he has had surgery and will be at the vets overnight for observation.

[Erny]

Oh gosh .... just came back to post a suggestion - and have read your recent post Dogdayz. I hope your dog recovers quickly and that the damage caused is not too serious.

My suggestion was going to be to train in something like agility in the backyard. You mention you do training there but he doesn't take much/any notice as the tree is such a strong attraction to him. But something like agility (if he hasn't done agility before you will most likely need to coax him around on lead - rewarding the negotiation of each obstacle with a favourite and special food treat) might strike an interest that he recognises as more fun than the tree, as well as being something that has him very mentally stimulated.

But I guess with the tree going, this isn't going to be a problem anymore.

Look forward to hearing that he's up and back to normal really soon.

[persephone]

Oh, Dear...well, that made the decision -making simple

Hope he recovers soon..will the tree be gone before he gets home?

Poor dog.

[Vickie]

Thanks for the ideas...decision made; the tree will have to go.

This afternoon he had to go have surgery after skewering himself through his underbelly presumably on a stick, while hunting the tree . So he has had surgery and will be at the vets overnight for observation.

Oh , what an awful thing to happen. I hope he has a quick recovery, poor boy.