Can You Have Too Many Fingers In The Pie ?

[BC]

For example only, what if I wanted my Border Collie to show, trial in obedience, train in herding, and maybe agility throughout his life.

Do you concentrate on 1 discipline at a time, as to not confuse the dog and when you have achieved what you wanted, move onto the next ? Or, do you do everything you want/can with your dog at the one time ? If so, do you find this confuses the dog, or your dog will not excel at one thing due to doing so many different disciplines ?

Would like to hear any thoughts on this

Edited September 25, 2007 by BC

[TangerineDream]

I've got a 2 year old GSP who is currently in the showing, doing obedience, doing some agility (will work happily on both sides) and just starting out tracking. Absolutely no confusion at all, and he adores everything we do ...I make sure that the equipment I use for each activity is specific to that activity, my clothing also and the commands.

Don't think you'd have any problems at all with multi-tasking a Border Collie

Edited September 25, 2007 by TangerineDream

[Vickie]

I'm not sure you can excel at all of these things at once...but I guess it depends on what your standards are. I think you can certainly do more than one thing at a time though & not confuse the dog...especially where herding is concerned & instinct comes into play. I always find with anything that mine is the biggest learning curve, it takes me far longer to learn & become proficient at anything than it does to train my dog.

Biggest issue doing more than one thing I think is time. I only do agility & herding & in all honesty don't really give enough time to agility & not nearly enough to herding to truly excel in either. Excelling in agility I think is possible with time & dedication, herding is much harder, despite best intentions.

People say that too much obedience can make introduction to sheep hard, since the dog is trained in obed to be very handler focussed which is not what you want for sheep. I have certainly seen instances of this, but am sure it can be overcome.

I know nothing about showing & what is required but since there are only so many weekends & hours in the day think it would be quite a challenge to fit it all in, especially if you have a family as well.

Not much help, I know, but my advice would be to pick one or two & then move to others once you are feeling like things have come together.

We know the BORDER COLLIE can do it ALL! My problem is that the handler can't

[BC]

People say that too much obedience can make introduction to sheep hard, since the dog is trained in obed to be very handler focussed which is not what you want for sheep. I have certainly seen instances of this, but am sure it can be overcome.

We know the BORDER COLLIE can do it ALL! My problem is that the handler can't

Yep, tell me about it. Took me quite a few months to get the bloody footwork and body language OK for obedience. I'm the dud not Cooper

I have heard so much conflicting advise in regards to this issue, and just wanted to know what everyone thinks so thanks for that.

I have very high standards so personally, I like to make sure Cooper and I are pretty much as spot on as we can be before we go to the next step in anything. This could be seen as a good or bad thing

I have never done herding with Cooper yet, but believe me, when he has "herding brain" it takes about 3-4 commands to get him off the cats, or other dogs, so I dont think the obedience would affect the herding. Personally I think it would be more the other way around, with the herding affecting the obedience as his instinct is sooooo strong, so thats why I am still waiting a little bit longer.

I actually think having the obedience and distance control with Cooper will help when I start herding, but I could be wrong. Will just have to see when the time comes.

As I said, there is so much conflicting advise and I guess it all stems down to each individual dog and handler.

[Guest rhapsodical78]

Well. I hope you can. My dog is doing obedience, agility, substance detection, man trailing, complex tricks and will be doing herding and showing at some point.

[Vickie]

I have never done herding with Cooper yet, but believe me, when he has "herding brain" it takes about 3-4 commands to get him off the cats, or other dogs, so I dont think the obedience would affect the herding. Personally I think it would be more the other way around, with the herding affecting the obedience as his instinct is sooooo strong, so thats why I am still waiting a little bit longer.

I actually think having the obedience and distance control with Cooper will help when I start herding, but I could be wrong. Will just have to see when the time comes.

I think you're right, you will have to wait & see. It's really hard to tell how much instinct dogs have until you actually try them. I've seen heaps of dogs who have all the moves off sheep, but very little on & vice versa. I'm not sure you can judge it other than on stock and dogs that look the part do not always have what it takes to excel.

Trim is the most biddable dog in the world in agility, but I struggle sometimes overcoming her instinct on sheep. I think it says more about me than her but she can be a real tough little nut on sheep & I very rarely have problems getting her to do what I want in agility. But again I am pretty confident about my agility skills & it is easy for me to have a clear criteria...not so on sheep, well not yet anyway.

I don't think there's anything wrong with having high standards but for me they vary from activity to activity, from dog to dog.

[jesomil]

With my last Rotty I did obedience, agility, tracking, flyball, tricks, a bit of schutzhund, tv work and pets as therapy visits all at the same time. We were very involved in all our sports and it took alot of time.

She didnt get confused because we trained at different places and every sport has different commands and different body language being used.

With my current dog i am finding that i can only do sheepdog trials with him. That is what he is bred for and the reason i bought him, so its fine by me.

I started doing competitive style obedience with him but found it was not good for his sheepdog work so have stopped it completely and will never do it again with a sheepdog.

I think with sports that dont require instinct, you can do as many as you can find the time and motivation for. You will probably do best at the one you enjoy most and train the most for.

Edited September 25, 2007 by jesomil

[Kowai]

I don't think you can Of course you can only do as well as the effort you put into a sport - but who says you can't do that with more than one? I'm currently in Weight pulling, Agility and Obedience And I may go int Flyball down the track. Even if we don't do that well I think it keeps life a bit more interesting for Zach!

[SwaY]

I think you can, no point being half good at something.

I prefer to master one thing then move along to the next.

[leopuppy04]

Hmm... I think you can but also - you may fall into the rut of being a "Jack of all trades and master of none" if you know what I mean

I concentrate on showing, obedience and agility. BUT I would also like to do herding, flyball, disc, doggy dancing.... the list goes on.

If you have the right type of dog, I strongly believe that you CAN do it so long as you plan correctly (unlikely to happen with your first dog).

For example - teaching too much obedience first off - may hinder your herding (not me speaking here. Not enough herding practice to form an opinion).... not to say they can't do both, but perhaps you give the dog a chance to work stock first BEFORE doing too much obedience..... just a thought.... The only reason I think this may ring true is because with a sport such as herding, you aren't *teaching* your dog anything new, but rather chanelling their instincts to do what you want them to. In a way - you need them to 'think' for themselves.... whereas a good obedience dog will be waiting on you for the next direction..... of course I may be completely wrong - so keep in mind I did say I have no herding experience

To me - most dogs are only limited by their handlers - meaning that they will be able to do as much as the handler can bestow upon them..... given that the handler is a GOOD handler and is able to let the dog understand/ discriminate between disciplines.

Time is another thing. If you want to be GOOD at a sport (and lets face it, who doesn't!?) you need the time to train and practice appropriately. For me, this means that I can't really expand past what I already do. Sure - I can dabble in flyball, herding etc.... but I couldn't take those seriously. I want to do well in obedience and agility (and showing of course) so I need to train for those appropriately etc. Having said that - if I do retire a dog (or rather when) it may mean then that I might take up something else to do instead.

I think you can do as many sports as you wish - but I also think you should have time to enjoy your dog, let your dog BE a dog and just 'chill' with them sometimes....

ETA: speaking from the sports I do - no - I don't think doing obedience/agility/showing together confuse the dog any and yes, I think you can do all 3 simultaneously. Your body language, posture and everything else is different for each discipline. Having said that - while I do train for each throughout the year, I may concentrate a little more on one at any given time. eg: When I was going after Leo's CD - that was more important than agility. Now, going after his AD - that is more important than Obedience.... but that is mainly in terms of what trials I enter. Next year - his CDX will be more important..... hope that makes sense

Edited September 25, 2007 by leopuppy04

[Arya]

I can't speak at all about herding but as far as other disciplines go I don't believe you can have too many fingers in the pie at all. You are only limited by your time and the standard of excellence which you wish to achieve, I think For example, I do obedience, tricks and tracking with my dog. They all seem to compliment each other and actually help each other in some way. Since I started Tracking (and I'm only just realising this now) I see an improvement in confidence in my girl in Obedience. Someone on DOL suggested I take up Agility for this purpose and I just haven't had time with all the other stuff I train because I demand a very high standard from my dog in each sport and just not enough time to add Agility to that and do them all justice but the Tracking seems to be having the same effect. Also, I have at times taken methods i use from tricks training across to Obedience to get something just perfect the way I want it. I can't recommend doing several sports highly enough. It's all good!!! The dogs love the variety too. Also, I have heard people say you shouldn't teach higher in Ob than your dog's level they are competing at. I believe this is a load of codswallop. What better way to bore the dog than stick to CCD or Novice? LOL. Do the lot and have fun is my motto.

[Ptolomy]

I do more than one discipline with my kids and don't have a problem. However each discipline becomes easier after you have attempted it the first time - you seem to work out the best way to do things and to train for them so you are wiser, more skilled and more confident when you attempt it with your next dog.

[dogdude]

Yeah, I get a hard time at dog club about being in the Open class without having trialled him yet. The other dog sports don't interest me, so not an issue.

I'm going to enter Northcote trial on cup day, so that should put that problem to rest.

[ness]

Like everybody has already mentioned I think the main issue is the time required and what level of performance you desire. I do both agility and obedience as well as dabble in canine freestyle (which basically means throw a routine together the week or so before a demo ). We don't do half badly most of the time.

[Tassie]

I'm afraid I fall into the Jill of all trades/master of none category a bit - but then, that's me. I'm not highly competitive - just enjoying doing lots of 'stuff' with my BCs. At the moment, my girl is doing agility, my boy obedience and a little agility, and both are tracking. My girl has had the chance to do some sheepwork on a friend's farm - but other than the old HIT, we don't do ANKC herding - not for her or me. Both dogs did their ET last year, just for fun.

Totally agree that time is the major limiting factor. As far as the disciplines I'm familiar with go, I agree withwhat's been said about formal obedience/sheepwork - I suspect you'd end up with a rather mechanical dog - which is not what I understand by sheepwork. (I'm with Jesomil.)

The other combination I think is problematic is tracking and herding. Not saying it can't be done, just that it's a big ask. When you're doing sheepwork, you want the dog to go into the paddock thinking about looking for sheep (eyes up), and if necessary, tracking sheep. Quite the opposite of what you want in tracking especially if you're going to be working in sheep country. (That said, once the dog has learnt the "Not those ones" or "That'll do", and they really understand the tracking game, they can probably cope.)

[Ptolomy]

The dogs love the variety too. Also, I have heard people say you shouldn't teach higher in Ob than your dog's level they are competing at. I believe this is a load of codswallop. What better way to bore the dog than stick to CCD or Novice? LOL. Do the lot and have fun is my motto.

Its funny when I started in obedience over 10 years ago most people waited until they achieved their novice title before training open exercises and then would wait for their CDX title before beginning UD training.

Now days dogs are introduced to UD exercises at a young age (my 3 year old was taught scent at 7 months of age), just the basics of go and find the one that smells like me - so once he had his CDX it didn't take long to add the finishing touches to his UD exercises and to enter his first trial. The young dogs seem to thrive on learning new things in an informal environment.

[dogdayz]

We do a bit of everything, but depends on the dog i think, i have one who thrives on variety so is happy to do 3 disciplines ina weekend, the other doesnt cope so well, so only one thing at a time.

Arya; interesting what you say about your girls confidence going up after tracking, I have noted the same with my weim, who after two years tracking is a much more confident dog, around other dogs and people. I think because tracking there really isnt any correction only reward so he has suddenly realised he can do things to please me. He is now reentering obedience, which we gave up as he couldnt do a stand for exam without going into full meltdown, but out of curiosity i have put him through the ccd ring four time this year without attempting to retrain stand for exam and he has perfect scored all four times.

[ness]

Ptolomy maybe thats just where you are and the fact you are on subsequent dogs so know what your doing (don't remind me that WA is ahead of the times ). Here still the deal seems to be you train your novice first till you get that title then your allowed to dabble with CDX (and people finally start talking to you and not totally ignoring you) and finally if you manage to crack your CDX title you are welcomed into the big league and allowed to attempt training for UD (BY YOURSELF!!!!!!!!!!!!!! with little in the way of assistance). If you can live through all the snide comments that get thrown your way in the process of training for UD and get to the stage of actually entering a trial then maybe people might start thinking you know what your on about .

[Ptolomy]

Ptolomy maybe thats just where you are and the fact you are on subsequent dogs so know what your doing (don't remind me that WA is ahead of the times ). Here still the deal seems to be you train your novice first till you get that title then your allowed to dabble with CDX (and people finally start talking to you and not totally ignoring you) and finally if you manage to crack your CDX title you are welcomed into the big league and allowed to attempt training for UD (BY YOURSELF!!!!!!!!!!!!!! with little in the way of assistance). If you can live through all the snide comments that get thrown your way in the process of training for UD and get to the stage of actually entering a trial then maybe people might start thinking you know what your on about .

Ness thats where you need the phone a friend option

Have to say in terms of obedience we are lucky to have some of the best gurus in Australia at our fingertips. Also our agility dogs and handlers are holding their own too. Not to forget Maggie and Guinness who last weekend earnt their Retrieving CH title - not many of those out there. Yep WA is a great place to live!

[leopuppy04]

Ptolomy maybe thats just where you are and the fact you are on subsequent dogs so know what your doing (don't remind me that WA is ahead of the times ). Here still the deal seems to be you train your novice first till you get that title then your allowed to dabble with CDX (and people finally start talking to you and not totally ignoring you) and finally if you manage to crack your CDX title you are welcomed into the big league and allowed to attempt training for UD (BY YOURSELF!!!!!!!!!!!!!! with little in the way of assistance). If you can live through all the snide comments that get thrown your way in the process of training for UD and get to the stage of actually entering a trial then maybe people might start thinking you know what your on about .

I too must be very lucky at my club (although not as lucky to have the WA guru's around!!!).

I have always been encouraged since day dot (first time trialler mind you) to keep going and keep ahead of where I was trialling. For example - whilst doing CCD - I was encouraged to be 'training' for Novice - while training in Novice - I was encouraged to do some Open stuff at home. Usually it is me that is the limiting factor as i'm too nervous to start on the new stuff.

Now - I am again encouraged to start teaching UD stuff already - but again, I'm not so sure as I don't want to do it wrong! Having said that - again I am given a lot of advice and guidance from those at club.

Once I get better and know what is expected of each level, I guess dog # 3 would be taught scent work from day dot. One thing I changed with Dog # 2 is introducing the d/b much earlier....

Like Ptolomy said - the young dogs seem to thrive on learning new things!