Lure Reward Training

[Sarah L]

I am interested in finding out how many people use lure reward training. How you use it, why you use it and have you found it worked for you.

I was taught this method a long time ago and found it to work very well for shaping dog behaviour in everyday life and especially for puppys. If used correctly I found behaviour shaping can happen very quickly and become consistant far quicker than forcing a dog to sit ect.... However I have seen to many times this method being used so wrongly that it is useless. I am interested in some responses first of how people think this method should be applied and how you have applied it before I give my response on how I have applied and used this method.

To many times I hear that the dog is only doing it for the food this is very true if it has been used in the wrong way.

Thanks in advance for your replys.

[leopuppy04]

Use it and find it very effective - though it does have limitations.

I use it for a variety of things such as sit/drop/stand etc.

The aim for me is to initially 'show' the dog to an extent what you want it to do, but to get the food out of your hand (and reward from the pouch/ external source) as quickly as possible. I firmly believe that if you keep the food in your hand for too many repetitions, the dog begins to see this as a cue (you going to pouch, pulling food out, THEN asking for something, THEN rewarding).

On the flip side - I do find that luring has it's limitations. For example - I find that sometimes (particularly with very food obsessed dogs) the dog will simply 'follow' the treat and not 'think' about what it is doing. This can 'lengthen' the process a little

[Kelpie-i]

We use lure methods all the time - this is what we base all of our initial teaching with at school.

Great for shaping more complex skills or even just teaching the dog a simple sit. I too have found that dogs respond more readily and learn quicker with this method and what's best....it teaches hand signals from the get go. Having said that, I still see a need for some "guide show place" techniques since a downfall of only using lures makes the dog resistent to touching/placing which can become a problem with some everyday things like going to the vet.

The other problem is that people don't remove the lures quickly enough and this is when luring turns into bribing. The dog only does it when the owner has food. I believe the lure should be phased out after approx 10 repetitions or when the dog starts to show signs of knowing the exercise.

[Erny]

I use it where and when it suits the dog and handler. Very quickly moved away from and transferred to positive reward method - continuous schedule, and then intermittent schedule.

Biggest problems people have are usually the result of poor timing/delivery of reward, lure-hand placement and poorly timed introduction/inclusion of verbal command. But a 'show-me' lesson and explanation normally has that sorted fairly well.

Other biggest problem is dogs disinterested in food or toys - but works for many.

I work on the basis of 5 repetitions with lure and generally speaking find this adequate. Naturally, some dogs less and some a few more.

[dogdude]

I use them, and also agree with what most people have concerns with.............and that is using the lure for far too long, and "paying" the dog, rather than use the food to motivate it, by advancing to an external source and working towards building and converting what you have into drive.

While food is a powerfull learning tool, it works both ways..............and this is where newbys can and normally do, create bad habits with their first dog. (refering more to first competition dog ie: obedience trialling etc)

Edited September 21, 2007 by dogdude

[Sarah L]

Hi all thank you for your replys. I would like to ask if when you are using lure training do you only use what the dog is fed or are the lures on top of what the dog gets on a daily basis? Also do you put the command word in straight away or wait till the behaviour is shaped?

I do agree lure training is not for all dogs but I am trying to find out if it is because it is used in the wrong way. When I was taught this method I was taught that the dogs daily quantity of food was used only. Also no word commands until the behaviour is shaped. It was also shown to me that if the lure is taken away to early and transfered to voice and verbal reward then confusion in the dog arised. From the way I was origionally shown to the way I see it being used today it has been changed by about 5%. I am interested in how you apply the lure method and thanks for the posts on whether you use it or not.

Edited for spelling not sure if I got them all

Edited September 22, 2007 by pinnacle dts

[dogdude]

I use, command - lure - marker word - release word - reward.

I can't see why any dog can't be taught this way, all dogs need to eat. I still use guide and placement methods as well when I think I need them, but I think the training goal is to promote the dog to work it out.

I see tons of people at dog club trying to teach a formal recall without one, and they wonder why they don't get anywhere. Alot of people say that they won't have food on them all the time etc, but they are missing the point, the long term goal in that exercise is for it to be used as a focal target, not payment.

[Sarah L]

Dogdude thank you for your reply. Many dogs have a fear of human hands and lure training may not if used wrongly work for them. However even when this is the case there are ways using lure training even if it is not directly from the hand that can get dogs to begin to trust the training and then the hands. Yes all dogs have to eat, but some will starve themselves before taking food from a human hand. I always insist that a feed bowl still plays a part in the dogs life even when lure reward is being used. So this also makes the dog think "I will just wait for my bowl". So it is a good idea to drop the lure on the ground and the dog will then take it. I am using the drop the food on the ground on fear response dogs.

You are exactly right in what you say that this methods goal is to make the dog think and not aimed at us making them comply to our commands but more want to comply to our instructions.

Can I ask why you use a command when first introducing this way of training? I always use and teach people no words until the behaviour is shaped.

[NaturallyWild]

I do utilise luring to give the dog a helping hand to begin with and when i do i am looking to remove the food lure asap - this could mean 3 repetitions then i remove the food and then the dog will follow the hand signal and then i quickly come in with food from the other hand when the behaviour is acheived. I find novice dog and trainer teams will need a few more food luring repetitions because their timing and hand movements don't tend to be as good. I like to teach hand targeting and find that this helps as the dog is eager to follow the hand without food in it. This will then mean i am then luring with the hand for new behaviours and do not need food lures and do not have this problem of "will only do it with food". I will then add a cue once the behaviour is happening the way i want it and predictably. Doing this will also help stop people becoming dependant on bribing with food because they are not using it at the point that they adding the word.

The thing some people have argued for shaping opposed to luring, successive approximations or placing, etc is that the dog has had to make that "self choice" to create the behaviour and creates stronger learning (for a number of reasons) opposed to following food or being pushed into place. I agree with this which is why i will get rid off food as early as possible and then also remove the hand signal fairly soon after adding the voice cue. This is to give the dog an oppertunity to use their "self choice" understanding of the behaviour to respond to the voice cue rather than the temptation of hand or food (some people really struggle with this as they expect a response from the dog within a second when it may take 10secs or so).

It is also a learning process for the dog though with each technique but once they have experienced enough of one type they get much more efficient at it and learning new behaviours is much quicker. Changing over to a new type of training then becomes a bit harder for them if they have only been used to one type. Like kelpie-i said, there is a need to used placing techniques so they are comfortable with this when needed, i like to use as many techniques as possible early on so the dog (and owner) are comfortable with working different ways.

[B-Q]

i use it for starting behaviours. Like sit, I have never agred with the forecable methods. My simply reasoning, the dog is focussing more on where your touching it and why then what its doing. We always used the "head goes up, bum goes down" philosophy which works, its essentially lure training but very soon (like after 3-5 reps) I just use my fingers as a lure, the dog soon learns I'm not holding anything but still, if they complete the behaviour they get a treat.

[dogdude]

Can I ask why you use a command when first introducing this way of training? I always use and teach people no words until the behaviour is shaped.

To answer your question PinacleDTS, I think that I just do it out of habit since crossing over using aversive methods, but I don't really see it an area that is all that important. Although it doesn't mean much to the dog in actually learning the exercise, it should help shorten the merging of voice only command with hand signal.

Perhaps I am missing an important point?

[helen]

I do use luring but recently saw someone who made very good use of targeting too which I was very impress with.

[Sarah L]

I do utilise luring to give the dog a helping hand to begin with and when i do i am looking to remove the food lure asap - this could mean 3 repetitions then i remove the food and then the dog will follow the hand signal and then i quickly come in with food from the other hand when the behaviour is acheived. I find novice dog and trainer teams will need a few more food luring repetitions because their timing and hand movements don't tend to be as good. I like to teach hand targeting and find that this helps as the dog is eager to follow the hand without food in it. This will then mean i am then luring with the hand for new behaviours and do not need food lures and do not have this problem of "will only do it with food". I will then add a cue once the behaviour is happening the way i want it and predictably. Doing this will also help stop people becoming dependant on bribing with food because they are not using it at the point that they adding the word.

The thing some people have argued for shaping opposed to luring, successive approximations or placing, etc is that the dog has had to make that "self choice" to create the behaviour and creates stronger learning (for a number of reasons) opposed to following food or being pushed into place. I agree with this which is why i will get rid off food as early as possible and then also remove the hand signal fairly soon after adding the voice cue. This is to give the dog an oppertunity to use their "self choice" understanding of the behaviour to respond to the voice cue rather than the temptation of hand or food (some people really struggle with this as they expect a response from the dog within a second when it may take 10secs or so).

It is also a learning process for the dog though with each technique but once they have experienced enough of one type they get much more efficient at it and learning new behaviours is much quicker. Changing over to a new type of training then becomes a bit harder for them if they have only been used to one type. Like kelpie-i said, there is a need to used placing techniques so they are comfortable with this when needed, i like to use as many techniques as possible early on so the dog (and owner) are comfortable with working different ways.

NaturallyWild thank you for your reply and explaining in detail the process you apply it with. Yes it is a good idea to remove the lure asap and you stated a valuable point of coming in with the other hand to give the reward this is how I was taught this method. I have seen and I think this is where it goes wrong is that people remove the food reward asap aswell and expect the dog to still respond. This leaves the dog confused and then the owner thinking the dog does it only for the food. After 2 or 3 consistant responses to the hand without food in it is when I add the word command. I never remove hand signals altogether as there are times, such as high winds/direction of the wind, crowded and noisy places where your voice may not be heard by the dog. I also teach people a couple of techniques early on but not to many as I have found it can confuse the owner and they end up mixing up the methods until the dog no longer know what to respond to. I also think that lure done right in the first place is then a great way to lead into targeting. I totally agree it is about getting the dog to make the "self choice" about the behaviour. The only answer I have not got from anyone yet is whether they only use the dogs daily quantity of food to train this way. Many I have seen try this method with extra food on top of what the dog gets daily and then say it does not work.

[Sarah L]

i use it for starting behaviours. Like sit, I have never agred with the forecable methods. My simply reasoning, the dog is focussing more on where your touching it and why then what its doing. We always used the "head goes up, bum goes down" philosophy which works, its essentially lure training but very soon (like after 3-5 reps) I just use my fingers as a lure, the dog soon learns I'm not holding anything but still, if they complete the behaviour they get a treat.

Busterlove great to see also that you still give the reward when the dog responds to your hand signal. I have also found that owners enjoy this way of training as it is less stressful on them than having to push and pull their dog around to get it to do things.

[Kavik]

I use luring like most of the others for teaching commands like sit, drop etc and for some tricks like spin.

I use treats on top of the dog's usual food (I use mainly cheese as training treats). My dogs are active and I keep them lean so the extra treats aren't a problem weight wise. If I am going out with them or to a day training session the dog I am taking may not get breakfast to keep them keen.

[Sarah L]

Can I ask why you use a command when first introducing this way of training? I always use and teach people no words until the behaviour is shaped.

To answer your question PinacleDTS, I think that I just do it out of habit since crossing over using aversive methods, but I don't really see it an area that is all that important. Although it doesn't mean much to the dog in actually learning the exercise, it should help shorten the merging of voice only command with hand signal.

Perhaps I am missing an important point?

dogdude thanks for answering my question. The reason we shape the behaviour first without the voice is because our body languge speaks clearer to the dog. Rarely can we mere humans match our voice to our body language, voice says one thing body is doing something differant. It is also done this way because it avoids the old habit of people saying a command 3 or 4 times before the dog responds to it. It is also all about getting the dog to think and make the "self choice". When done with body languge first this does shorten the merging of voice and hand signal.

[Sarah L]

I do use luring but recently saw someone who made very good use of targeting too which I was very impress with.

Helen I also think targeting is great to. We did this when I did agility with my old girl since passed on in her younger days she did really well at it.

[Staranais]

I've used luring really successfully for heeling, since I like my dog to target my left hand with his eyes while we heel (he's so short and stocky that he ends up crabbing and forged if I ask for him to make eye contact with my eyes).

I started off luring him with food in my left hand and feeding from the left hand, which quickly made him focus on my left hand. It was then quite easy to transition to marking and rewarding him watching my left hand by giving food from my right hand. Now we're working on having him heel while earning an (out of sight) prey drive reward.

There are other ways you could teach targetting the left hand for heeling of course, but this worked pretty well for us.

I used either part of his food ration, or additional special treats, when I was teaching this. I don't think it really matters which you use, as long as the dog is motivated enough to earn the food. Same with any type of reward, food is only an effective reinforcer if the dog wants it enough to work for it!

[NaturallyWild]

The only answer I have not got from anyone yet is whether they only use the dogs daily quantity of food to train this way. Many I have seen try this method with extra food on top of what the dog gets daily and then say it does not work.

I think it is wise to only use a portion of the dogs daily food for a couple of reasons - first is i'm a fanatic about keeping dogs from getting overweight and secondly if it is food added on top of the normal ration, some dogs can loose food motivation very quickly, particularly when puppies. I suggest for a new dog/puppy feeding as much of the daily food ration from their hand and not feeding the immediate meal prior to training (ie the night before meal if training in the morning or the morning meal if training in the afternoon) because if they are working hard enough in class they will probably endup feeding a full meal or more.

[Kelpie-i]

PDTS, I'm with you regarding when we give the command. I don't normally label the action until the dog is confidently giving it to me with signals first. I suppose I do this mainly to ensure that the dog knows exactly where it has to be before putting a name to the action. I don't think there is a right or wrong way, mainly just the way people are taught and their beliefs.....and what works!

Personally, I don't like to "name the baby before it's born" (good ole' Brenda Aloff saying ) and am see the huge advantages this has, especially with novice handlers as this is a good way to stop them over commanding the dog. Ie. it stops all the "sit, sit sit sit sit" stuff.

Marking and shaping are also something we do a lot of (at school), especially with heeling and recall.

Regarding the feeding, I suppose if you have a fit, food driven dog then you could use extra treats on top of their normal meal, on the other hand if you have an overweight dog, then I would portion this as part of their meal. Non food driven dogs can also be taught to successfully drive for food, so I don't believe anyone anymore who says their dog doesn't drive for food.

Kavik: started off luring him with food in my left hand and feeding from the left hand, which quickly made him focus on my left hand. It was then quite easy to transition to marking and rewarding him watching my left hand by giving food from my right hand. Now we're working on having him heel while earning an (out of sight) prey drive reward.

Yes love this technique for teaching heel. It's especially good for young pups and creates beautiful focus.

Edited September 23, 2007 by Kelpie-i