Falling_dawn Posted September 20, 2007 Share Posted September 20, 2007 As above what the difference between biting and mouthing I have been told Mouthing = Is typical puppy behaviour they have to learn is unacceptable Biting = Is very very bad will probably need professional help How can us newbie’s tell the difference Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted September 20, 2007 Share Posted September 20, 2007 (edited) IMO "mouthing" has no emotional intent. It is an action necessary in the early development of teeth and jaws. Left unchecked and coupled with the advancement of maturation, it can lead to "biting" though, which IMO has emotional intent and has nothing to do with teeth and jaw development. ETA: Yes PW, you're right. "Biting" carries with it the intent to harm or for its recipient to go away. Edited September 20, 2007 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poodle wrangler Posted September 20, 2007 Share Posted September 20, 2007 (edited) Hopefully a trainer will be in soon for a proper definition (oops, Erny's here, slow typing, sorry) but my understanding is that mouthing is a playful activity whereas a bite has none of this playful aspect- is deliberate and dog is quieter/ watchful/ fearful/ aggressive. I'm not sure how you'd mistake the difference, but perhaps you're thinking of a scenario I've not thought of? Edited September 20, 2007 by Poodle wrangler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falling_dawn Posted September 21, 2007 Author Share Posted September 21, 2007 (edited) I am scenario: child playing/ rolling around with a puppy has hand waving all over the place inculding the puppy face ( yes I know very bad a big no no child need traning as well ) both are excited puppy growls ( the way a puppy does with a another puppy )tail waging and nips no blood is drawn but there are teeth marks would this be mouthing or biting I understand if a dog or puppy in "lunging" barking, growling, and snaps this woulds be biting but in this situation what would this be I know I am really dumb Edited September 21, 2007 by Falling_dawn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted September 21, 2007 Share Posted September 21, 2007 Mouthing, left unchecked, can lead to biting as the pup matures. A young child waving arms around is often viewed as simply another litter mate by pups who often mouth each other. It is in this that pups usually learn inhibited bite. BUT although this is normal behaviour for pups, it is up to us to teach pup that this can't be tolerated to humans (adults or children). I can only assume in your case that your pup is exhibiting normal puppy behaviour. It sounds like it but without seeing the pup I can't tell you with any accuracy. One way or the other you need to teach your child how to behave around puppy when things get a bit too excited and also be there to supervise so that puppy can begin to learn how to behave around children. I would strongly urge you to begin attending a reputable puppy/dog school with instructors who have knowledge in this field and who would be able to assess the situation and advise/show you further. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birgulparis Posted September 21, 2007 Share Posted September 21, 2007 Hi, can I also ask an opinion on this subjset. Dante is my 6 month old GSD and he used to be very mouthy when we first got him. Turning our backs on him and a few other things helped to control him with this. However latley he will be walking up behind me and as he approaches my side he will bite at my hands (which really hurts as he now has big doggy teeth) or other times if he is sitting next to me and i am patting him he will bite my hands if i stop. What should i be doing besides the "no" or ignoring him? (making sense?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelpie-i Posted September 21, 2007 Share Posted September 21, 2007 (edited) However latley he will be walking up behind me and as he approaches my side he will bite at my hands (which really hurts as he now has big doggy teeth) or other times if he is sitting next to me and i am patting him he will bite my hands if i stop. This is no longer puppy mouthing but a leadership problem brewing. He is "demanding" you to continue patting him and also demanding attention from you by biting your hand. What should i be doing besides the "no" or ignoring him? (making sense?) If he is not enrolled into a good obedience school, do it now and also google NILIF, which stands for Nothing In Life Is Free, for a good simple program to assist with leadership. Edited September 21, 2007 by Kelpie-i Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poodle wrangler Posted September 21, 2007 Share Posted September 21, 2007 (edited) Scenario: child playing/ rolling around with a puppy has hand waving all over the place inculding the puppy face ( yes I know very bad a big no no child need traning as well ) both are excited puppy growls ( the way a puppy does with a another puppy )tail waging and nips no blood is drawn but there are teeth marks would this be mouthing or bitingI understand if a dog or puppy in "lunging" barking, growling, and snaps this woulds be biting but in this situation what would this be I know I am really dumb The tail wagging suggests its not aggression, but play. Bite or mouth? Probably mouthing, but the teeth marks are letting you know that the dog is playing too hard and needs to be taught otherwise . Mouthing for my larger pup never involved teeth marks, however, he was fed by his mother when he had lots of teeth and the breeder reckons this is very good as Mum teaches them not to bite her pretty damn quick. My dogs growl and bark when playing and also when the dominant dog is telling off the other, however the "tell off" is serious- no wagging tail and deliberate, slower movements. Edited September 21, 2007 by Poodle wrangler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted September 21, 2007 Share Posted September 21, 2007 A tail wag does NOT indicate the absence of aggression- it is only an indication of the dogs intention to interact. Falling dawn- how old is the puppy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted September 21, 2007 Share Posted September 21, 2007 However latley he will be walking up behind me and as he approaches my side he will bite at my hands (which really hurts as he now has big doggy teeth) or other times if he is sitting next to me and i am patting him he will bite my hands if i stop. As per Kelpie-i's post, Birgulparis. Your dog is maturing and the above are signs of HIS impression that HE is higher up the heirarchy ladder than you ..... or at least he is asserting himself knowing the potential of being so. You're ignoring him (which in essence is the correct thing to do) but HE is pushing the boundary - and of course we can't ignore behaviour that hurts us. If you're not sure about what to do regarding re-establishing your leadership (as your dog sees it) then get some help either from a dog school (check that the instructors know and understand dog behaviour and can help you there - obedience training is very good but by itself does not dictate leadership .... that's starts at home ) or have someone give you a private lesson to explain and show you what to do. NILIF is one of the things you can do and is a very good and relatively simple but often effective program. It is all about doing things on YOUR terms and not the dog's. If you feel that you are being challenged by your dog, then get some help in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted September 21, 2007 Share Posted September 21, 2007 PW - Ditto what Cosmolo said regarding tail wagging. The belief of "a wagging tail = friendly" is a dangerous one to keep and might result in an unexpected bite injury one day. There are nuances to tail wagging. IE The speed of tail wag; the swing of the tail; the position of the tail. And all of that is further influenced by the dog's other intricate body postures (such as ears, stance, brow, eyes etc. etc. etc). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birgulparis Posted September 21, 2007 Share Posted September 21, 2007 (edited) However latley he will be walking up behind me and as he approaches my side he will bite at my hands (which really hurts as he now has big doggy teeth) or other times if he is sitting next to me and i am patting him he will bite my hands if i stop. As per Kelpie-i's post, Birgulparis. Your dog is maturing and the above are signs of HIS impression that HE is higher up the heirarchy ladder than you ..... or at least he is asserting himself knowing the potential of being so. You're ignoring him (which in essence is the correct thing to do) but HE is pushing the boundary - and of course we can't ignore behaviour that hurts us. If you're not sure about what to do regarding re-establishing your leadership (as your dog sees it) then get some help either from a dog school (check that the instructors know and understand dog behaviour and can help you there - obedience training is very good but by itself does not dictate leadership .... that's starts at home ) or have someone give you a private lesson to explain and show you what to do. NILIF is one of the things you can do and is a very good and relatively simple but often effective program. It is all about doing things on YOUR terms and not the dog's. If you feel that you are being challenged by your dog, then get some help in. Thanks Erny and Kelpie-i, I will talk to the instuctors on wednesday (going to KCC on wednesday nights for obediance Kelpie-i ) Cheeky Dante is pushing his luck!!!! Definatley will seek there advice, can let you know what Im advised if you like Falling_dawn ??? Edited September 21, 2007 by birgulparis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falling_dawn Posted September 23, 2007 Author Share Posted September 23, 2007 she is six months almost 7 months old she is starting obedence training next week Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tali Posted September 24, 2007 Share Posted September 24, 2007 HI Falling dawn You have my sympathy. I'm trying to teach my kids the "right" way to act around the puppy - don't get down lower than her, don't irritate her, don't do the jerky hand waving stuff, but my 4 year old is, apparently, a slow learner. At first, I put up with the pup nipping as a way of defending herself and trying to teach my daughter, but now she is 5 months old I've started growling at the puppy when she shows any aggression toward the child, (and then usually growling at the child and sending her away from the dog). This seems to be helping with stopping the dog "biting"/nipping. My older dog does what I call "mouthing" where she will, very very gently, direct your hand in her mouth.... ususally to get her tummy scratched! The pup also sometimes "mouths" me (plays and puts her mouth around my hand etc), but without any pressure. I don't let her do this to the kids, as she is still sorting her place in the pack with them. I've also been removing/moving her food bowl while she eats. Started this myself so she would know I was boss, then have got the kids etc to do it too. All good - no attempts at biting/growling at all. I'm very fussy on this as I grew up with a dog you had to walk 2 metres around when it was eating or it would bite anyone... no - that dog had no training at all! Gradually things are improving with my child (older boy is great with pup) - but I must say dogs are easier to train than kids!! Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falling_dawn Posted September 25, 2007 Author Share Posted September 25, 2007 (edited) birgulparis- sure good luck let us know how it goes Tali- Kids are a pain but dont we love them I dont know who is harder to train my 4 year old or a pig headed BF Edited September 25, 2007 by Falling_dawn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted September 25, 2007 Share Posted September 25, 2007 (edited) I've also been removing/moving her food bowl while she eats. Started this myself so she would know I was boss, then have got the kids etc to do it too. All good - no attempts at biting/growling at all. That may well be working for you and your dog, Tali (and maybe only for now?). But there are more than just a few dogs where that can create a problem in itself. Remember that in "dog lore" possession of food is 9/10ths of the law. It is rude (from a dog's point of view) for another to take the food they are eating. I agree that it is necessary for us to train our dogs that it is ok for us to do, but you need to be careful to not end up provoking a dog into the aggression that under typical inter-dog circumstances would be normal. If you are doing the "remove the bowl" exercise, I'd be sure to give the dog a 'bonus prize' (eg. A treat even tastier than what is in the bowl) and, having given the dog that treat immediately return the bowl and leave her to eat. The treat is not only a reward for the dog having no qualms about the removal of the bowl, but also serves to create a positive experience for it. I'd also not bug her (not suggesting you are - just a caution) too much with the "bowl removing exercise". Heck - I'd get pretty fed up if someone kept removing my plate from underneath my nose each time I ate. Edited September 25, 2007 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tali Posted October 2, 2007 Share Posted October 2, 2007 HI Erny I've belatedly read your reply and agree with not being too annoying in doing this. My girl (Tali) is 12 now, and we almost never touch her bowl, but it's nice to know both the children and I can do so without fear. We mainly only do so when (for example) we have forgotten to hide tablets and so on in the food. Jess had started growling at Tali when Tali tried to take her food - which I let slide as they need to sort it out themselves - but I wanted to be sure that she understood she couldn't do the same to the family, which happily she does seem to have realised. It's not something we do every meal, and usually I only do it by sliding her bowl sideways on the floor - which doesn't interrupt her too much at all. I take your point about this only being appropriate with certain dogs - happily my experience with the three dogs I've had as an adult have made this easy to train them with... would have been interesting with the dog I had as a child. He was quite unpredictable and had bitten me on at least 3 to 4 occasions - twice for walking past his bowl (within his magic 2 metre radius)... can't help but wonder what sort of pet he would have been had he been trained properly! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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