Unintentional Conditioning

[Rom]

I remember taking part in a food refusal class once where the instructor cautioned against using "OK" as a release word.

I've since heard the same advice from a number of trainers and the reasons given are generally to do with the fact that OK is one of the most common words in the English language and you don't want to mistakenly release your dog at an inappropriate time or in an inappropriate environment.

What I'm wondering is, since OK is such a common word do we unknowingly condition our dogs to it without even thinking about it? Either as a release or a cue that something good is coming?

Eg:

-Kids on the inside of the door, dog on the outside, kids ask if they can let the dog in and you say "OK"

-You've just given your dog a bath and finished towelling him down and you say "OK, all done", dog runs off having an attack of the zoomies like they often do after a bath.

There are possibly hundreds of ways that the word "OK" slips into conversation when we're dealing with our dogs.

I wonder how many times when a dog has displayed uncharacteristic behaviour, like breaking a trained position, or a normally self controlled dog has aggressed and the owners say to themselves "Wow, he's never done that before/hasn't done that for a long time, I wonder what set that off?". I wonder if they've inadvertently slipped the word 'OK' into converstation without realising that they've conditioned it?

Too far fetched?

[Erny]

Rom - I think that to 'condition' a dog to the word you'd need to pair it with something that fairly specifically and directly relates to something that the dog likes (or conversely, doesn't like). Because we use the word "OK" in frequent generality (ie even when it means nothing to or about the dog) I doubt that it would pair.

But if the same occurrence happened frequently enough directly following the "OK" word, then the dog could pick up on that. It is also possible that there are other cues happening around the same time that might give the appearance that the dog is understanding when the "OK" word relates to him/her and when it isn't.

:frown: Hope that makes sense.

I think I noted Victoria Stillwell say the same thing about cautioning against the use of the "OK" word the other night. That's the first time in a long time that I've heard a trainer outside of my own circles reflect the same caution I give.

Many training schools don't seem to give thought to (or if they do, don't seem to think it of any particular concern or affect) the use of words as release commands compared with their general use by us humans in our day to day language.

Ok?

ETA: In my training, the release command is a completely different word to that of the "pass word" used in Food Refusal training ............... just so you know ;).

Edited September 19, 2007 by Erny

[Vickie]

Nope, not too far fetched, I think it's a very valid point and we need to consider key words while also giving our dogs some credit for reading body language & intonation. I use "Go" in agility, but there is a very clear sequence of events that comes before the word...we walk to the start line, I remove her collar, she sits between my legs, I walk out, I make eye contact, I say Go in an even tone. Even though she releases on Go, I believe for her it is a whole sequence of events that never varies & she sees it in that context.

There are others I wonder about as well...for instance

"no" sounds just like "go". I use both in different circumstances but think my dogs pick up on the tone it is said in to differentiate. I also have a dog called "NOah", and have been known to say his name in frustration :D just a few times ;) .

I use "come-bye" on sheep to mean go clockwise, but occasionally if I am getting frustrated & my pitch changes, I see a glimmer of confusion b/c "come" means something else.

Likewise "away" can sound similar to "ahhh!" in frustration. Only a problems for Novice handlers ;) , I think...the old guys never lose their cool.

I have also chosen a different word in Agility Pairs to tell my partner to Go...the last thing I want to be yelling is Go when I want my dog to stop, but on the occasion I have used it, it has made no difference.

I have seen my dogs respond to a word used in general conversation ("ball" is an obvious one, as is "food") often enough to know that they are listening & very tuned in to some words meaning an action. At the end of the day I know that my body language will always overrule any verbal given, so don't stress about it too much.

Edited September 19, 2007 by Vickie

[Kavik]

With the sheepwork I have started, I wondered about the probability of the dog confusing 'Stop' with 'Drop' (although I guess in the end not a big difference as both are stationary positions, at least one does not mean to move!), and I also use 'Go' as my send away command, good point that it sounds like 'No'! So far Kaos seems to be able to tell the difference, due to intonation? Even when I am doing drive work with the squeaky, when I practice both Stop and Drop commands, he seems to get it right.

'OK' is my release command for Zoe, but I use 'Free' for the others.

[Rom]

Cheers Erny.

I think I might be re-iterating one of your points, but just to clarify for me I guess that since OK is so general, that we might be pairing it with negative events, positive events as well as neutral events so it really doesn't establish a particular meaning to the dog? I get it.

It is also possible that there are other cues happening around the same time that might give the appearance that the dog is understanding when the "OK" word relates to him/her and when it isn't.

And this kind of relates to what Vickie is saying...cueing events leading up to the word but for Vickies purpose, the events are planned/trained for rather than being mindless (for want of a better word) routine?

Many training schools don't seem to give thought to (or if they do, don't seem to think it of any particular concern or affect) the use of words as release commands compared with their general use by us humans in our day to day language.

Funny you should say this, I was watching a bloke doing food refusal the other day and his release word was 'Syd'. The dog was a lab so it didn't take too long to grab the food LOL but I wondered if he had initially caused his dog confusion with 'Sit'

I haven't come across many trainers up this way at all that use a formally trained release...for anything, not just food refusal. Curious, eh?! It has really helped my dog out.

[Rom]

'OK' is my release command for Zoe, but I use 'Free' for the others.

Kavik, do you find that Zoe releases at non planned use of 'OK'? Or is it just in drive that you use it.....so she doesn't consider the 'OK' a release unless you've given the trigger?

If she doesn't, then I guess giving the trigger is kind of like a cueing event?

[Kavik]

I don't do drive work with Zoe, but haven't really had a problem with her releasing on an unintentional OK. Haven't really tested it though, so she may break.

[Erny]

Cheers Erny.

I think I might be re-iterating one of your points, but just to clarify for me I guess that since OK is so general, that we might be pairing it with negative events, positive events as well as neutral events so it really doesn't establish a particular meaning to the dog? I get it.

Yep - seems you do ;). Thank you, I wasn't sure if what I was trying to say was making sense.

It is also possible that there are other cues happening around the same time that might give the appearance that the dog is understanding when the "OK" word relates to him/her and when it isn't.

And this kind of relates to what Vickie is saying...cueing events leading up to the word but for Vickies purpose, the events are planned/trained for rather than being mindless (for want of a better word) routine?

Yeah - so let's say the dog hears "OK" all the time, any ol' time ..... but you always say "OK" as you finish mixing your dog's feed in his feed bowl (and this example has nothing to do with food refusal training, by the way .... :D). On all other occasions, hearing "OK" may not trigger any symptomatic stimulation from your dog, but when you say "OK" just as you are about to finish mixing his food, you might be able to expect an elevated level of excitement/anticipation from the dog.

So in this instance, the word "OK" paired with the action of mixing food in food bowl, might have some bearing.

This could be a bad example ................. because you might just as easily be able to cough and inspire a waggier tail from your dog ;) - but I hope you get my meaning.

... I was watching a bloke doing food refusal the other day and his release word was 'Syd'. The dog was a lab so it didn't take too long to grab the food LOL but I wondered if he had initially caused his dog confusion with 'Sit'

"Syd" wouldn't be a good word to use, assuming the owner gives the "sit" command in English. But perhaps he uses a different word for "sit" altogether?

I haven't come across many trainers up this way at all that use a formally trained release...for anything, not just food refusal. Curious, eh?! It has really helped my dog out.

I have found that the word is spreading (pardon the unintended pun), but I agree ........ by comparison, not many people use it and not too many schools teach it.

Edited September 19, 2007 by Erny

[Tonymc]

Rom,I can give you a classic case of unintentional conditioning.Totally unintentional.

A mate of mine a Farrier had Heelers.He had a blue Pup that came down from Mareeba.Nice type of pup from a long of good Dogs.This Mate unknowingly conditioned this Pup.Everytime someone would drive into his place,the Mate would pick up this Pup walk across to the Visitors Car and talk to them.Whilst talking to the Visitor the Mate would place the Pup on the Car Bonnet.

When this Pup became an Adult,whenever a Car would pull in the now Adult Dog would race over and jump up on the Bonnet.The mate wondered why the Dog was behaving like this.I said to the Mate,well you taught it this behaviour. Tony

[Erny]

If she doesn't, then I guess giving the trigger is kind of like a cueing event?

Not forgetting that tone has a bearing too. Otherwise, can you imagine how many times our dogs would lay down whenever Mums say things like "I'm just going to drop Tommy off" or "please, sit down" etc. etc. (Mind you, that has happened once or twice, but the context and intent of my sentence was different ..... therefore tone and infliction was affected.)

The problem with a word such as OK is that we might possibly sing it out (eg. friend calling at a distance "don't forget appointment" ...... "yeah! OK!!!" as a response. And in that type of instance, the tone could carry similarities.

I have had a trainer tell me that very thing happened to a friend of his many years ago. Dog was heeling off lead .... friend call out and dog owner responded "OK!!!!". Dog released and went to race across the road. This was way back when .....

Edited September 19, 2007 by Erny

[Rom]

Rom,I can give you a classic case of unintentional conditioning.Totally unintentional.

A mate of mine a Farrier had Heelers.He had a blue Pup that came down from Mareeba.Nice type of pup from a long of good Dogs.This Mate unknowingly conditioned this Pup.Everytime someone would drive into his place,the Mate would pick up this Pup walk across to the Visitors Car and talk to them.Whilst talking to the Visitor the Mate would place the Pup on the Car Bonnet.

When this Pup became an Adult,whenever a Car would pull in the now Adult Dog would race over and jump up on the Bonnet.The mate wondered why the Dog was behaving like this.I said to the Mate,well you taught it this behaviour. Tony

;) Bet your mate was popular with his visitors....I'm having visions from Cujo....dog on the bonnet barking through the windscreen.

Thanks for the example, Tony

[Tonymc]

No problem Rom.Yes it was a bit unsettling for some this Dog flying up on their bonnet. Tony

[PAX]

Has anyone stood if front of your dog and said the release word without moving or giving any other information to the dog?

If you test it out it is amamzing how many dog don't know the release word but cue off our change in body position.

I have been caught out on my relaese word 'ok'. I have had the dogs on stays in the yard and my kids have told me xxx is on the phone and I have replied with 'ok'.

[Arya]

At the end of the day I know that my body language will always overrule any verbal given, so don't stress about it too much.

I agree with the above. I also think we aren't crediting the dogs with enough intelligence here. Shoot me down everyone LOL but my experience has always been that the dog CAN tell the difference. Sure, they know the words but I believe they have the simple ability to recognise those words in the context with which they are meant. For example, my marker word is 'yes'. One I was warned not to use but I know lots use it. Now I worried, cos at the start of a Trial run thru for each excercise of course the judge asks if you're ready and I say 'yes'. Is the dog released? Nup. I have seen her and tested this out. No, no, in any other situation when I'm using that word, except when she is working and I am aiming it at her, then it takes on a different meaning for her. I also disagree about them not 'unintentionally' pairing words with rewards. Take good, excellent, good dog, whatever. What is it paired with? Your approval! That is a reward. Also, and here is the cool and slightly funny thing about 'naughty' words. Stop and take note. When you say a naughty word (the 'f' word is a classic as it doesn't get said often around our house but if something really annoying happens, well... what can I say). Try saying it around your dog. Ears down. Woops, there's trouble about! they pair the words with meaning and it's imho lots of examples of spontaneous Pavlovian conditioning. Pavlovian conditioning at its basis is, of course, a day to day survival mechanism built into animals. It's not just something Pavlov invented.

So in short ... I think OK is just as good as any other word as a marker, whatever Victoria says.

[Keshwar]

Here is an interesting exercise.

When you are out walking with your dog, playing with your dog or generally interacting with your dog try to notice how many extra words you use when interacting with your dog. My bet you'll be surprised how many times you use phrases like "OK, good boy" before actually asking your dog to do something or praising it.

I think b/c we are such verbal beings we sometimes don't really notice what we are saying. I had to really focus on not giving Faxon non-important information. Things like "Ok, goodboy, now sit" - the only thing I had really registered was I had told him to sit. No wonder the poor boy would look at me strangely sometimes.

Bear.

[Rom]

For example, my marker word is 'yes'. One I was warned not to use but I know lots use it. Now I worried, cos at the start of a Trial run thru for each excercise of course the judge asks if you're ready and I say 'yes'. Is the dog released? Nup.

Just a slight point to clarify where I'm coming from, a marker is trained differently to a release. For example, some who do use a formal release do not teach the stay command. They train the dog that if they give a command eg sit, then the dog sits until it is either released from that position or given another command. However, while the dog is sitting, they can still mark the behaviour to let the dog know that it is doing the right thing...encourage it. So their release word is different to their marker word.

The reason I think this helped my dog out is that I might want to let her know she is doing the right thing, but I don't want her to stop what she is doing. So during a long stay for example if there was a distraction that once would have caused her to break, but she didn't, I could mark her not breaking without her mistakenly thinking/believing that she had been released....

Have I just made a mud puddle?

[Keshwar]

For example, my marker word is 'yes'. One I was warned not to use but I know lots use it. Now I worried, cos at the start of a Trial run thru for each excercise of course the judge asks if you're ready and I say 'yes'. Is the dog released? Nup.

Just a slight point to clarify where I'm coming from, a marker is trained differently to a release. For example, some who do use a formal release do not teach the stay command. They train the dog that if they give a command eg sit, then the dog sits until it is either released from that position or given another command. However, while the dog is sitting, they can still mark the behaviour to let the dog know that it is doing the right thing...encourage it. So their release word is different to their marker word.

The reason I think this helped my dog out is that I might want to let her know she is doing the right thing, but I don't want her to stop what she is doing. So during a long stay for example if there was a distraction that once would have caused her to break, but she didn't, I could mark her not breaking without her mistakenly thinking/believing that she had been released....

Have I just made a mud puddle?

That's an excellent point and one that I think many people new to training have problems with.

I think many people who are new to training associate their marker word as also ending the exercise. This leads to confusion when you introduce an exercise with any duration in it - like stays.

Bear.

[Arya]

No Faxonandbear I get you perfectly For me this is 'all finished' and is extremely important. I use a phrase for this, which is understood perfectly by the dog. I use it in preference to 'free'. It truly marks the complete end of the excercise and training time. However, I use the marker for stays too. It works well for me this way. So if we really reach the total end I will say 'yes' and 'all finished!'. This is the signal that it is over. But I wouldn't use a release word the way you use it, I think. I understand perfectly just don't work that way. I do hope I haven't muddied the mud puddle further

[Keshwar]

No Faxonandbear I get you perfectly For me this is 'all finished' and is extremely important. I use a phrase for this, which is understood perfectly by the dog. I use it in preference to 'free'. It truly marks the complete end of the excercise and training time. However, I use the marker for stays too. It works well for me this way. So if we really reach the total end I will say 'yes' and 'all finished!'. This is the signal that it is over. But I wouldn't use a release word the way you use it, I think. I understand perfectly just don't work that way. I do hope I haven't muddied the mud puddle further

Hey Arya,

I retrained myself and Faxon for the stays. I don't use a "stay" command anymore. So my stay looks like: Say "sit", mark the stay "Yes!", leave dog, wait specified time, return to dog, then release "Break!" This way sit means sit until I tell you to do something else like "break" or "come" or "drop" etc. The same applies to stand and drop. For this to work a clear release word is vital.

Bear.

[Arya]

No Faxonandbear I get you perfectly For me this is 'all finished' and is extremely important. I use a phrase for this, which is understood perfectly by the dog. I use it in preference to 'free'. It truly marks the complete end of the excercise and training time. However, I use the marker for stays too. It works well for me this way. So if we really reach the total end I will say 'yes' and 'all finished!'. This is the signal that it is over. But I wouldn't use a release word the way you use it, I think. I understand perfectly just don't work that way. I do hope I haven't muddied the mud puddle further

Hey Arya,

I retrained myself and Faxon for the stays. I don't use a "stay" command anymore. So my stay looks like: Say "sit", mark the stay "Yes!", leave dog, wait specified time, return to dog, then release "Break!" This way sit means sit until I tell you to do something else like "break" or "come" or "drop" etc. The same applies to stand and drop. For this to work a clear release word is vital.

Bear.

Hey Bear I think we just work a little differently but basically the same. The thing is, your way might be a really great help to another DOLer who was looking for stays help last week - Glorybea! She could try this. I will alert her to your post. It might be that your way really solves her problem with stays. I don't think she's tried what you do!

Cheers