Desexing Advice

[Toohey]

A pre anaesthetic blood test won't determine if a dog is going to have an anaphylaxis!! And if there is no IV access to give adrenaline.....

Thanks for the info. Next time my dogs need surgery the vet will be thoroughly questioned prior.

[sheree_e4]

A pre anaesthetic blood test won't determine if a dog is going to have an anaphylaxis!! And if there is no IV access to give adrenaline.....

When we have needed to use adrenaline it goes straight in the heart-if the heart has stopped and you put it in a IV its not going to be effective.

[Toohey]

When we have needed to use adrenaline it goes straight in the heart-if the heart has stopped and you put it in a IV its not going to be effective.

Veins go straight to the heart. And I hope the vet would realise there is a problem before it gets to the stage where the heart has stopped.

Course it's going to be effective. Ive seen it done in people many times.

Anyway, enough sidetracking. Apologies to the OP..

[sheree_e4]

Veins go straight to the heart. And I hope the vet would realise there is a problem before it gets to the stage where the heart has stopped.

Course it's going to be effective. Ive seen it done in people many times.

Anyway, enough sidetracking. Apologies to the OP..

Sorry you are right I missed out an "AS" effective,it's much quicker straight into the heart.

SORRY OP,but thought i should clarify

[~Anne~]

Puggles, I am not incorrect. It's certainly possible, though more likely in those who have impaired cardiac/renal systems.

The incidence on pumlmonary oedema due to fluid therapy is extremely rare. In humans the rate is something like 0.01% of patients given fluid therapy post op develop it. I doubt there would be stats on dogs, hence why I have given the human equivelant.

The dog would have more chance of suffering an anaphylactic reaction to the aneasthetic then to develop this I would think. Rappie, where are you? Your words of wisdom would be fab here.

Wikipedia is not always a reliable source of info.

As for IV access... I have never seen a Vet do this as matter of course although I wouldn't discount that this happens but it would more likely occur when a patient was in for trauma surgery or when the animal was gravely ill before the procedure. But, things are changing in veterinary medicine and so I would think that these ideas are changing as well. Routine desexings though on the whole wouldn't need this normally.

Edited September 18, 2007 by Puggles

[Toohey]

The incidence on pumlmonary oedema due to fluid therapy is extremely rare. In humans the rate is something like 0.01% of patients given fluid therapy post op develop it. I doubt there would be stats on dogs, hence why I have given the human equivelant.

It happens, I have seen it happen. I was not incorrect as you originally stated.

Wikipedia is not always a reliable source of info.

No the information comes from many years of real life experience and genuine knowledge and that was the first quote I could find in a hurry as I believe it is wrong to give information without any sort of backup.

Routine desexings though on the whole wouldn't need this normally

Routine procedures on humans they are not often needed either, but they are necessary if ANY drugs are being given, so that allergic/unexpected reactions can be handled ASAP without having to stuff around and try and find a vein with shaking hands when they have all collapsed.

sherree

Sorry you are right I missed out an "AS" effective,it's much quicker straight into the heart

How many vets you know are proficient at giving an intracardiac injection...under pressure,... to hundreds of different size animals?

Edited September 19, 2007 by Toohey

[~Anne~]

[Toohey]

[~Anne~]

Sometimes I think that too.... my excuse - I am fiercely competitve, what's yours!

[peibe]

Female dog-desexing, I always believe IV fluids are helpful, they recover faster

Young dog under 12 months with known vet history, no blood work

[Falling_dawn]

when I had my girl fixed I paid extra for blood work , IV fuilds , pain killers for 5 days, and a cone for her head , as a new dog owner I was unware and was on the phone to the Vet nurse all day as the price for her desexing went up by the hour dependeing on who I talked to I know It was my fault I was going to have to pay $ 470 for a 5kg 5 month old puppy

But if I had lost her on the table it would have cost me alot more

Edited September 19, 2007 by Falling_dawn

[zoepuppy]

Abbi, my 6.5 month old GSD pup was desexed on Monday. I paid for the IV, you know when the vet put in a way that it would be better blah blah... so anything for my pup.

My regular vet was away so I saw this other vet in the same practice. She is new, not personal and even forgot my dog's name after having operated on her. Hmm , in hindsight I should have waited for my regular vet who knows my pup's name and her history and my previous dog but I didn't want to take the chance of my pup coming into heat.

IMO, Abbi's incision looks untidy (ok i am not a surgeon) and am wondering what your dog's incision looked like when you brought her back. I will post pic you want of Abbi's but I don't want to put anyone off.

[~Anne~]

IMO, Abbi's incision looks untidy (ok i am not a surgeon) and am wondering what your dog's incision looked like when you brought her back. I will post pic you want of Abbi's but I don't want to put anyone off.

Like human Docs, some Vets are great at suturing while others aren't. I wouldn't worry about. The dog won't care if there is a scar.

Best to just keep focussed on keeping it clean and dry and checking for any signs of infection or sutures loosening up or her pulling them out.

[Falling_dawn]

Lucys came back fine her incison was clean and tidy the Vet was not bad just very expensive and had alot of extras they kind of guilt you into paying for I hate guilt so I normally just pay up for peace of mind

[Alibi]

Would the people who dont think extras are necessary themselves go in for a major surgery without having fluids, post-op pain relief and bloods? Vets have to offer the extras as they start with offering the gold class standard, then they have to work around peoples budgets. If my dog was desexed without fluids and the blood pressure dropped and damage was done, i would be really mad that fluids hadnt been offered. If the dog was in alot of pain after the surgery, i would also be really angry that post-op pain relief hant been offered.

Just because they are offering them doesnt mean they are trying to force you to have them to rip you off, they are just starting by offering the ideal suituation for your pet, then they have to work from there.

[Toohey]

Would the people who dont think extras are necessary themselves go in for a major surgery without having fluids, post-op pain relief and bloods? Vets have to offer the extras as they start with offering the gold class standard, then they have to work around peoples budgets. If my dog was desexed without fluids and the blood pressure dropped and damage was done, i would be really mad that fluids hadnt been offered. If the dog was in alot of pain after the surgery, i would also be really angry that post-op pain relief hant been offered.

Just because they are offering them doesnt mean they are trying to force you to have them to rip you off, they are just starting by offering the ideal suituation for your pet, then they have to work from there.

My objection is to the idea that these offered as "extras" when they should be given automatically IF NECESSARY. It should be included in the consent form that there are risks associated with any surgery and if they encounter complications during the procedure that require such things as intravenous fluid, the owner agrees to that when they sign the consent form.

It suggests that if the dog bleeds, the vet will say oh the owner didn't pay for IV fluids, therefore we let the dog bleed to death.

Whatever happened to duty of care?

Pain relief should also be included as part of the expected cost. Pain is expected after surgery. Shouldn't that be part of the expected cost?

How many times have you had a vet say "well if it was my dog, I'd want this etc..." ?

If my dog was desexed without fluids and the blood pressure dropped and damage was done, i would be really mad that fluids hadnt been offered.

Again, if fluids were required and not given, that is incompetence or negligence on the part of the vet. it should not be up to the owner to decide whether or not the dog needs fluids.

Edited September 20, 2007 by Toohey

[Toohey]

double..

Edited September 20, 2007 by Toohey

[Alibi]

Would the people who dont think extras are necessary themselves go in for a major surgery without having fluids, post-op pain relief and bloods? Vets have to offer the extras as they start with offering the gold class standard, then they have to work around peoples budgets. If my dog was desexed without fluids and the blood pressure dropped and damage was done, i would be really mad that fluids hadnt been offered. If the dog was in alot of pain after the surgery, i would also be really angry that post-op pain relief hant been offered.

Just because they are offering them doesnt mean they are trying to force you to have them to rip you off, they are just starting by offering the ideal suituation for your pet, then they have to work from there.

My objection is to the idea that these offered as "extras" when they should be given automatically IF NECESSARY. It should be included in the consent form that there are risks associated with any surgery and if they encounter complications during the procedure that require such things as intravenous fluid, the owner agrees to that when they sign the consent form.

It suggests that if the dog bleeds, the vet will say oh the owner didn't pay for IV fluids, therefore we let the dog bleed to death.

Whatever happened to duty of care?

Pain relief should also be included as part of the expected cost. Pain is expected after surgery. Shouldn't that be part of the expected cost?

How many times have you had a vet say "well if it was my dog, I'd want this etc..." ?

If my dog was desexed without fluids and the blood pressure dropped and damage was done, i would be really mad that fluids hadnt been offered.

Again, if fluids were required and not given, that is incompetence or negligence on the part of the vet. it should not be up to the owner to decide whether or not the dog needs fluids.

I agree with you Toohey that post-op pain relief should be included and not optional. There is a risk with any surgery, but they just offer ways to lessen that risk. In the old days none of these extras were included, but the standard of care is now improving with new and improved ways of doing things. But also lots of people shop around so if a vet makes everything included while others dont, a hell of a lot of people will go for the cheaper price, all they see is that its cheaper, they dont look to see what it includes. So the vet that does everything without making the extras optional in the end prices themselves out. Most vets work on offering the gold class standard first to the client, then work from there with their budget.

[zoepuppy]

IMO, Abbi's incision looks untidy (ok i am not a surgeon) and am wondering what your dog's incision looked like when you brought her back. I will post pic you want of Abbi's but I don't want to put anyone off.

Like human Docs, some Vets are great at suturing while others aren't. I wouldn't worry about. The dog won't care if there is a scar.

Best to just keep focussed on keeping it clean and dry and checking for any signs of infection or sutures loosening up or her pulling them out.

Yesterday, Abbi's incision looked red, moist swollen on one side and she was a bit uncomfortable. Today we took Abbi back to the vet. Vet says the swelling is just the fluid, stained with blood. Tonight there was more blood stained fluid oozing out than yesterday. Abbi has been on the elizabethan collar all day. I am a bit worried. Has anyone experienced this? I am not happy with this.

[Rappie]

From the other side of the fence:

In terms of standards of care, the ideal would be that all patients undergoing a general anaesthetic receive intravenous fluids. Any general anaesthetic will lead to a reduction in blood pressure by the nature of the drugs administered - intravenous fluid support will help to prevent significant fluctuations in pressure, not to mention ensuring patent venous access in the event of an emergency so that a bolus of fluid, or emergency drugs may be administered IV immediately. The problem is that most young healthy patients are able to tolerate the changes that occur during anaesthesia and recover uneventfully afterwards so that IV fluid support is considered "unneccessary" - however that doesn't mean that the changes don't occur. In the event of an emergency, it can sometimes be difficult to then establish IV access in a decompensating patient. Routine surgeries are something that are commonly "price shopped" and for some reason, cheapest is generally accepted as being the best. If clinic incorporated IV fluids into the already discounted cost of speys and castrates, a situation may arise where ess people would get those elective surgeries done. If I do not feel comfortable doing surgery on a dog (or cat) without IV fluids, then I don't give the option to the owners. If an animal did crash under anaesthesia, then they would get whatever emergency treatment was required to stabilise them, it's not a matter of "Nope, the owner didn't tick the box, we'll just stand back now" (with the exception of critical cases that were declared DNR etc.).

As for pre-anaesthetic blood testing - a lot of clinics will offer this as a matter of course. It is an option available to any surgical patient, just because you are offered something does not mean that you must accept the offer. It is something that I especially recommend for any patient that I suspect of having a problem, or as a "routine" check for any older patient. It is not something that I would push for a young dog but you may choose as you wish. Some people resent paying for a test that tells them that their dogs liver and kidney function is normal, while others find it a great relief.

Edited September 20, 2007 by Rappie