Stupid Owners

[pawsaroundoz]

I hear you too Mys'

I really think people are terribly rude when they keep on yelling at there dogs whilst others are trying to do stays, when I did train I used to ask anyone whose dog broke in any way to go quietly back to the dog in an non threatening manner and put/encourage the dog back into the correct position.

Annie and her boyz

[Staranais]

- Classes are for learning, not practicing and proofing

- AH AH-ing interferes with other handlers and their dogs, and is a verbal correction that would not go unpenalised in a trial ring.

Well, here's an opinion from the other side of the fence.

If my dog went to break a stay in class, I certainly would immediately growl "uh-uh" at him, since he knows full well what "uh-uh" means. Letting him break a stay without giving him immediate feedback on his behaviour would confuse the heck out of him. He's not the brightest star in the sky.

I do use classes more for proofing than I do for learning. I figure learning is best achieved in a low distraction environment - i.e, not in a busy class environment with lots of other people and dogs. So I teach at home during the week, and come to class to proof. I know I'm not the only one who uses classes for this.

If I was working near someone that was yelling all the time, I would probably get annoyed too (as well as thinking that the handler was probably not being very effective or they wouldn't have to constantly yell at their dog to keep its attention). But other trainers giving the occassional uh-uh I would regard as just part of the normal class environment. Training classes simply are a distracting environment. You dog has to see other dogs, hear barking, see other handlers with treats, hear other handlers give high pitched excited praise, etc. Many dogs find these things more distracting than hearing the occassional "uh-uh".

And although you certainly can't ah-ah in a trial ring, you can't praise either, or use a clicker, or give toys or treats. I do all of these things on the training field. I think that's what training is for, practicing while being able to give your dog rewards or punishment, so that when you get into the sterile environment of a trial ring, your dog is clear about what you expect and knows exactly what he's doing without you having to give feedback.

JMO.

[Mystiqview]

My opinion:

If my dog went to break a stay in class, I certainly would immediately growl "uh-uh" at him, since he knows full well what "uh-uh" means. Letting him break a stay without giving him immediate feedback on his behaviour would confuse the heck out of him. He's not the brightest star in the sky.

I would have to ask, what did you do to stop the dog from breaking in the first place? A dog often gives signals to indicate they are going to break. Some people cannot read their dog's signals then go in hard for a dog breaking, where if they were able to read their dog, they would have been able to correct the dog before it broke. Corrections and praise only have a short window to be given before they hold no meaning for the dog (3 seconds). Once a dog has broken, it is too late.

I have been lucky to have been trained by some top trainers and behaviourists. One of the first things we learnt was how to read a dog's signals.

I do not mind the occassional AH AH in training. There is big difference between using an occasional AHAH to contantly growling AHAH at a dog doing stays. I myself use "look" or even the occassional AHAH BEFORE the dog breaks. Once the dog has broken, the use of AHAH's does not serve much purpose.

My dogs are taught focus early in their training. As a result they look at me 99% of the time. If they look away doing stays, then I may use "look", "leave" or "ahah" depending on the situation.

I know training grounds are full of distractions, smells, other dogs, people etc. Dogs wanting to play, owners wanting their dogs to say hello and play with your dog during training. Me personally, I do not let my dogs play with others during training. If my dog is losing focus, I will go away to the side of classs for a minute or two to have a one on one play with me. To get their drive and focus back onto me. After class, I will let my dogs play with select other dogs as a reward for their attention during class.

I train at home as well as at parks and club training. It is all learning, as lets face it, there are plenty of distractions at a trial. Often our obedience competitions are held along side agility competions, so we need to have our dogs to be able to perform while there are plenty of distractions around. A dog has to be able to learn while there are other distractions around. They cannot just learn where there are no distractions.

At first when first teaching a new exercise, you do train where there are no distractions. Then build up the number and type of distraction until they can work in an area where there are plenty of distractions.

In my opinion only, contant growling at a dog, does nothing as it becomes used to this noise, and then turns off. Corrections of any sort should be quick and with enough emphasis to suit the individual situation. Praise should also be used when the dog does something good. I see too many people only use correction and little praise. If a dog is not praised for something it does well, it does not learn either.

As I said earlier in a post, when you see the top trainers train, they have no need to constantly growl at their dog. Their communication to the dog is such that only the dog needs to hear it, not the whole oval. If they need to make a correction they are quick, sharp, to the point and not overdone (constant growling at a dog is overdone). Their praise is timed to perfection. If they need to go back to basics, they do to reinforce the exercise they are trying to do. Then build back up and proof it until they get what they are trying to achieve.

[Staranais]

I would have to ask, what did you do to stop the dog from breaking in the first place? A dog often gives signals to indicate they are going to break. Some people cannot read their dog's signals then go in hard for a dog breaking, where if they were able to read their dog, they would have been able to correct the dog before it broke. Corrections and praise only have a short window to be given before they hold no meaning for the dog (3 seconds). Once a dog has broken, it is too late.

That's precisely why I said I'd growl "uh-uh" if my dog went to break a stay, instead of saying that I'd growl "uh-uh" after he'd broken a stay.

It's also why I will use "uh-uh" instead of just walking up and replacing my dog, since "uh-uh" is a bridge that can be delivered immediately upon him starting to break a stay - well within 3 seconds - whereas walking calmly up to him may take a little longer (and he may have managed to reinforce himself somehow in the meantime).

A dog has to be able to learn while there are other distractions around. They cannot just learn where there are no distractions.

Then I think we just have a problem with using different vocabulary. I would call training around distractions "training" or "proofing", not learning. IMO the dog should have already learnt the basic steps of the exercise in a low distraction environment, during the teaching phase of training, before you introduce distractions.

In my opinion only, contant growling at a dog, does nothing as it becomes used to this noise, and then turns off.

I think I've already said above that I find constant growling to be both annoying and ineffective.

I do not mind the occassional AH AH in training. There is big difference between using an occasional AHAH to contantly growling AHAH at a dog doing stays. I myself use "look" or even the occassional AHAH BEFORE the dog breaks.

Then I guess we're in complete agreement.

Edited September 23, 2007 by Amhailte

[Mystiqview]

Amhailte,

Sorry I misread your first sentence where you said "if you dog went[/] to break.

Yep, I think we are in agreement. Just a shame that some instructors cannot instruct basic fundamentals to classes

[Staranais]

Sorry I misread your first sentence where you said "if you dog went[/] to break.

I thought you might have.

It agree that it is a shame that some instructors don't teach the basics of how to train. Then again, most instructors are just volunteers - they have often only trained a few dogs themselves, and haven't necessarily read widely about dog training or been on any proper training courses. I also suspect that some trainers only know about types of dogs they have personally trained, and have no idea about about other methods or other techniques if they didn't have to use them for their own dogs.

e.g, some trainers will have only trained smart dogs so have gotten away with sloppy training techniques that simply won't work with less motivated or less able dogs. I've found that competition trainers who have mostly worked with clever, sensitive traditional obedience breeds sometimes have no idea how to motivate or teach my "obedience" dog (a dog aggressive, slow learning, insensitive, cocky, prey driven stafford...)

IMO a good obedience instructor who knows their stuff is worth their weight in gold.

[Mystiqview]

yeah again I may have been spoilt.

Before getting into dog training, I used to train horses and compete in dressage. After the fall where I broke my back, I got into dobermans and trained a few of those before getting a husky then now have for the past seven years had border collies.

But even with border collies. There are smart ones and others who are a little thick. One border collie I had you would sware was a greyhound it was that much of a lounge lizzard. So NOT driven it was not funny.

Have not been on training courses in the last couple of years, but have been on some really good ones and not so good ones. I used to instruct a few years ago, but decided my dogs come first and now just train my own dogs. Good instructors are hard to come by, volunteering at a dog club is rather thankless other than any personal satisfaction you may have.

As volunteers are harder and harder to come by, they often get someone who has just progressed through the classes to instruct. Like you said, they may not have had much experience with other breeds, or may have been lucky with a particular dog.

My training at this dog club is purely for the distractions of a class situation - certainly not the quality of instruction. I also train at two other private establishments who have quality instructors.

[Staranais]

My training at this dog club is purely for the distractions of a class situation - certainly not the quality of instruction. I also train at two other private establishments who have quality instructors.

I'm quite lucky at the club where I am now, I have a nice instructor who is happy to respect to my dog's needs (i.e he simply can't have other dogs getting in his face) and who is happy to let me do my own thing even if it's different to how she has trained in the past (yes, swinging my dog round on the end of a tug then repeatedly kneeing him in the belly is really reinforcing to him...)

But I've had some pretty poor trainers in the past - ones that wouldn't allow me to reinforce as I needed to, ones that refused to allow corrections, and like you said, ones that seem to have become instructors by simply progressing through the levels of the club without actually learning much on the way.

But I figure, since I don't help instruct classes myself (way too shy), I don't really have the right to criticise too loudly.

[Mystiqview]

Nah critisize. Stuff what they think.

I have been to clubs that teach a method THIS way or THAT only. Depending on what it is.. I will do it their way or not. One such funny one was teaching drop. It is so left field that I still cannot get my head around it. Not to mention I cannot bend the way they teach it.

I have had trainers who will not allow food, will only use food, not allow clickers and so forth. Rocky is one that does not work for food. Yet one of the instructors say that 'all dogs will train for food". Rocky works for pats. Good by me.. One less thing I have to carry around.

I have had one trainer who does not like or agree with check chains. Because I use a chain to train (collar only) rather than flat collar or slip collar, they think I am cruel to the dog. But when I train, I can count the times I have actually used the collar as a choke chain on one hand. To me and mine, the chain just signifies training as opposed to a flat collar which holds their council tags.

[Kelpie-i]

The instructor was basically infront of the person whose dog had broken and just stood there. I have nothing against this person at all. He knows his stuff. He trials..

Trialling your own dogs, unfortunately, means nothing. Just because the instructor has trialled dogs doesn't mean he/she understands the psychology of a dog and how they learn. Some instructors train others to train their dog as they would their own; meaning they have a "one size fits all" approach. Which is unfortunate as all dogs have individual personalities.

If the instructors at my school turned a blind eye to something like this, they'd be shown the front door - with or without trialling experience!

I'm sorry to hear of your experience and I hope that your dog is back to normal in no time.

[Mystiqview]

Trialling your own dogs, unfortunately, means nothing.

Yeah I know. There is another there who I sware teaches kindy garden.. Cause thats how they talk to you... You feel like putting you hand up and going miss, miss or sir, sir.

He is more damaged I think mentally than physically. I have managed to get soo much trust back. Then to have this. one step forward.. ten backward.

On a positive note, I have just returned home from showing two days at Nanango. Four shows on two days. The first was a male, he wanted to lean away.. kinda expected as I greatly suspect he was bashed by a man. Second show, was better. Got a little whale eyed, but stood there.. Did not want to skit away.

Today.. Male judge again was first up. Wary, but did not move. Second show was a very large lady. His previous owners were very large. He actually stood there.

Did not take him to the show to get points on him so much. As someone said.. I am already against the 8 ball trying to show a tricolour. Dunna care..Getting people to go over him..in a more relaxed manner than that of a trial ring.. hopefully will give better results.

Two weeks time.. another four shows in two days....

lets see how badly I get sunburnt on that one. Mum suffered more than dogs.