Stupid Owners

[Mystiqview]

At training tonight. My dog was doing REALLY well... until a person next to me was yelling and growling at her dog..Every time she heeled.. it was a harsh HEEL... Harsh LOOK..and of course the necessary YANKS on the chain. (Not again chains.. I use one.. I just never need to yank it)

When I train, I talk softly to my dogs.. He is the only one that needs to hear me.. not the 15 or so others in the class. My commands are soft, my praise is soft unless he does some thing really well.. then it may get louder..

like many a border collie, mine is sensitive and very responsive.. and well given his history with the previous owner (was bashed - I got him at 5 months after his breeder got him back) can be a little timid.. I moved to the other end of the class. At the end when we did drop stay.. a &^&^$* lab got up and attacked him....Useless owner was bouncing all over the place..

And I get the dirty looks cause my dog broke the exercise.

DO not know what it is about some people who think that a dog MUST be yelled and GROWLED at if they even so much as blink the wrong way. Let alone break the stay and they are 3 metres away and have to YELL AH AH!

What purpose does it serve??????? THe dog has broken and is continuing to break and the owner just stands there and yell AH AH. Rather than quietly going back, putting the dog back into position and then goes to JUST INFRONT OF THE NOSE

Did not think the dog put in a bite.. but he has blood on his ear.

There is my vent for the night.

[BC]

I hear ya.

Sometimes I look at dogs who break, or run away from their owners, and see the response from the owner.

No wonder the poor dog is running, I would too if I was spoken to like that.

Yes, borders are sensitive, Cooper being extra special ;) A slight change in my tone, or glare and the ears are back and he has the sulks, so I have to speak gently and always have a smile on my face. (even though sometimes I could throttle him ;) )

As you, I just quietly put him back in position and stay a bit closer, or walk back and forth rewarding every 20 seconds or so. No need for yelling and screaming ;)

This is where the instructor should step in and have words to that person, and explain that if they continue to react that way, the dog will never be solid in any excersise, and that they are possibly interfering with the other dogs.

What level are you in and do you have to go to class ??

Hope your little possum is OK

Edited September 17, 2007 by BC

[Erny]

Mystiqview ..... I'm surprised anyone would give dirty looks because a dog broke a stay when being attacked.

To take a positive out of the experience though and assuming your school runs socialisation classes, why don't you ask them to include people yelling, being abusive (pretending, I mean ...), larrikanising etc. etc. as part of socialisation so everyone can desensitise their dogs to it?

There are many instances in real life where noises, sounds and movements are similar to the above but are not intentional and it is good to have dogs who remain calm and unconcerned about them.

And if I've had cause to leave my dog in a stay, I don't need it to be so tentative that someone yelling in the proximity would be sufficient cause to break the command. That's where proofing the stay comes in.

I'm glad your dog is ok though. ;)

Edited September 17, 2007 by Erny

[Mystiqview]

Erny,

I know what you are saying and yes we will get to that level. I have been training dogs a long time and horses before a bad fall stopped that hobby.

However this is the first rescue kinda dog I have had. and as with all animals who have been mistreated, you have to first get their trust, and go slowly slowly building up confidence until they can get there. In the process you will take steps forward, then backward then backward again. I had to praise him a month ago at our royal show. I had him in the pedigree stand where he was patted by the multitudes.. When you think that 14 months ago, NO-ONE could get near him..very marked improvement. I had him next to rides, microphone even fireworks. All ok, so it is not loud noise per sae.

However it is also very hard with someone standing less than a metre from you yelling at their dog at the top of their lungs harsly (and I mean harshly. Not one word of praise from this person at a praise tome of voice) at their dog and not have any dog melt. He was doing well for the first 5 minutes of this.. After about 15 minutes.. He was getting concerned. I moved to other end of class lineup... He can still hear it of course, but it is not right in his ear so to speak.

I am sure you can appreciate that constant barrage of this kind to a soft dog will eventually take its toll.. Proofing is all about little blocks at a time. I hope you do not expect a dog to sit there and not react to 45 minutes of the person next to you yelling at their dog. He was only just promoted to class 3 at this club ( HE was in class 3 at another club before this but I dropped him back a grade when I moved back to this side of town and this club) a week ago..

[JulesP]

I'm having much the same issues with my border and he hasn't been mistreated. Doesn't seem to matter were in the class I put him for stays I always have the issue of dogs breaking and owners yelling. He doesn't even like the way the owners walk back to their dogs (in a grumpy manner). I am standing very close in the stays and telling him how wonderful he is.

[BlitznBear]

I dont know if Im a little quirky but I always say please and thankyou to my boys, I met a Rotty owner a few years ago who always spoke softly and said please and thank you to his beautiful boy, he was strictly a guard dog and when meeting us for the first time, the dog could see us coming from a distance and was going off tap, but from 10 meter's away his owner was saying "Tana quiet for daddy please" and he would! I couldnt quiet hear him because the dog was going off tap, immediately he sat, his owner said "thank you Tana, good boy, and he settled instantly..

I thought it was a great lesson to learn prior to owning our first dog together.

I dont think there's any reason to yell at your dog, it does nothing, and makes the owner screaming at the top of their lungs look desperate and out of control.

I hope your boy is o.k.

[poodlefan]

Blitz:

I dont think there's any reason to yell at your dog, it does nothing, and makes the owner screaming at the top of their lungs look desperate and out of control.

Really? When my dogs go into chase mode I'll yell my lungs out!! Maybe I am desperate.. I've been known to yell "leave it" when Lil is lining up for a nice roll in duck poo or Kanga guts too. However, my dogs don't hear me yell all the time - I save it for when it matters.

Personally, Mystiq I'd be saving my ire for the instructor of the class - they control how people train and what happens. In the situation you describe, I'd have sent the handler back for their dog as soon as it broke.

[BlitznBear]

poodle fan, yes your so right,, I will scream at the top of my lungs in certain situation's and it usually out of panic or fear, but when your screaming and yelling at your dog during a training situation where its suppose be a positive and fun place to learn for both owner and dog, yelling achieves nothing.. and they do look silly which draws attention to everyone..

[Diva]

Really? When my dogs go into chase mode I'll yell my lungs out!!

Yelling never works for mine, esp in chase mode. If I yell they they seem to assume that either

-I've lost the plot and am best ignored, or

-I'm just as excited by whatever they are doing as they are, and I'm urging them on.

A single command like 'leave it' in a no-nonsense tone of voice, then a happy enthusiastic recall command, is my best (only!) chance to get them off a chase or away from duck poo.

Agree the instructor of that class should have been intervening a lot ealier.

[Mystiqview]

Rocky is fine apart from a tooth mark through his ear. Thankfully it is a nice clean one and have treated it at home. Aside from that he is ok. A little frazzled. Catching up with Miss Monaro tomorrow night to get him to play with her labs to give a positive experience. This dog normally rolls over for everything. I had him running with other stud dogs with never any fights. Great for two whole dogs.

Do not get me wrong. I will yell at my dogs when the need arises.

I do not think however for training that every command and praise should be in the same tone, and all harsh. I find it remarkable that when people say HEEL to their dog they have to do it harshly, likewise with the COME command. These two especially should be happy and cheerful.. My other commands are assertive but not harsh.

I agree with going back in, replace the dog in the broken position, and then stepping back to infront of the dog's nose. You do not go back to standing 3 metres away from the dog. The dog is not ready for you to be that far away.. No one heard about going back to basics?? Then stepping it out to where you were??

The instructor was basically infront of the person whose dog had broken and just stood there. I have nothing against this person at all. He knows his stuff. He trials.. But sometimes I think that when it comes to instructing, they forget to instruct the basics especially when a dog keeps breaking an exercise. Then the stupid owners fail also to listen and go back to their 3 metres cause the rest of the class is doing that and I think they feel that people might laugh at them if they cannot do the same within the same amount of time others take.

Have to clarify something in my first post.. with training.. you take a step forward...two back then two forward.. (Not backward and backward as I had initially wrote) Over time, your backward steps lessen and your forward steps increase... Well that is the plan anyway.

[SkySoaringMagpie]

What purpose does it serve??????? THe dog has broken and is continuing to break and the owner just stands there and yell AH AH. Rather than quietly going back, putting the dog back into position and then goes to JUST INFRONT OF THE NOSE

I agree. While it's true that you eventually proof a dog against most things there's no sense in one person in a class making the proofing journey twice or three times as long as it need be for the dogs who already have a longer journey in front of them.

I have said to students who "AH AH!!" their dogs during stays that not only will that eventually be penalised in tests as they move up the ranks, but it's really annoying to other people and won't win them any friends. Then I explain what to do if the dog breaks or looks like it will break.

I save "AH AH" for situations that are dangerous - breaking a stay in a training exercise is no cause for an "AH AH".

[Cosmolo]

Anita, how does the dog know the difference between a training exercise and dangerous situation as perceived by us? Isn't training the best time to proof and train for those times when a danger is present.

So sorry you had a bad experience at training, i do agree with Erny re: proofing, but also with talking to the instructor if you feel someone is going over board and it concerns your dog. I too have a rescue dog with extreme fear issues. Although she is much better she too would respond, to someone yelling- her reaction would be a default to a drop though as we have taught her to do this (or come to us if not in a position) when she is worried.

As much as they can be over used, a well timed verbal correction can help the dog to understand what behaviour the owner is correcting/ guiding/ fixing if the owner is at a distance and the dog breaks- as it takes 5- 10 seconds for the owner to get there depending on distance. Screaming a verbal correction is not what i'm talking about though!

Hope your dogs confidence is back to normal as son as possible.

[SkySoaringMagpie]

Anita, how does the dog know the difference between a training exercise and dangerous situation as perceived by us? Isn't training the best time to proof and train for those times when a danger is present.

Training in a class or training on your own time? I agreed that proofing a dog is important. I don't agree that AH AH-ing a dog in a group class situation is appropriate. Two reasons:

- Classes are for learning, not practicing and proofing

- AH AH-ing interferes with other handlers and their dogs, and is a verbal correction that would not go unpenalised in a trial ring.

So sorry you had a bad experience at training

That was mystiqview not me. Fortunately for me our furry supermodels don't usually attract the attention of bumptious dogs.

[Erny]

- Classes are for learning, not practicing and proofing

I see classes as for being all three. Well, more particularly for learning and practicing. We are there to teach and to observe class members to practice so we can check to see their progress and to 'tweak' techniques/methods to ensure they are being properly executed and/or to help with any problems.

"Proofing" is also practiced in class (level dependant). By doing so, class members gain a better understanding of "how" to proof and "what" to do in the proofing process.

[SkySoaringMagpie]

- Classes are for learning, not practicing and proofing

I see classes as for being all three. Well, more particularly for learning and practicing. We are there to teach and to observe class members to practice so we can check to see their progress and to 'tweak' techniques/methods to ensure they are being properly executed and/or to help with any problems.

"Proofing" is also practiced in class (level dependant). By doing so, class members gain a better understanding of "how" to proof and "what" to do in the proofing process.

I don't disagree with this, but I see learning how to proof and having one's proofing methods checked over by an instructor as part of the learning process.

The day to day practice of proofing - taking your dog to different environments and training them - is going to be done on the student's own time. Apart from anything else, a dog club full of dogs and smells and people is a tough environment for anyone start out in with proofing. They'll need to to practice some stuff in lower distraction environments first.

[mutchumbo]

Yelling at a dog is only a sign that the handler has 'lost' control. Nothing else!

[Mystiqview]

The funny thing is, he stayed for awhile before breaking. The first sit stay exercise (3 minutes) he did perfectly. It was the ones following that he broke. As I said, a constant barrage of people yelling AAAHHHs at their dogs left and right of you of course will take its toll on a more timid dog.

It is my belief that some instructors no longer instruct people how to correctly train their dogs and turn blind eyes and ears to what is going in a class situation.

If a dog breaks a group exercise, you don't yell at it from across the field while it continues to break position.. Then eventually put in back in the line up and go back to where everyone else is across the field. You put in back into position, and stand infront of the dog's nose and then go home and proof it there. Come back and gradually get it up to a state where you can put a good distance between yourself and the dog.

You are not allowed to yell at the dog from across the ring in a trial (and yes I do trial in open with another dog), so why practice the behaviour in class. Of course you cannot do many things in a trial ring as you can in training. But yelling AAHH AHH's IMO across the field equates to bad manners and bad training. The better top trainers don't need to do it.. so the lesser ones should not need to do it either.

Anyway catching up with Miss Monaro tonight at show training and hopefully get some confidence back with her lovely labs.

[JulesP]

If I yelled ahhh at Brock that would make him break even quicker ;)

[Mystiqview]

well just got home from show training.. and he did well..

free stacks nicely... gotta love the obedience work...

What a handsome lad he was.

[MissMonaro]

Anyway catching up with Miss Monaro tonight at show training and hopefully get some confidence back with her lovely labs.

Thanks. :D

He certainly didnt seem too overly fazed by the young labs. I thought of bringing the older pup/teenager, but she gets very excited and I thought might off been a bit too "in his face"....whereas the younger ones, being smaller than him, I thought he might not feel threatened by them.

But I think he did really well Tracie. ;) and from what I saw he looked like he went well in class for you also.