What Constitutes An Nq In Recall?

[KismetKat]

Had a 'fun day' at my dog club today - where we all 'pretend' to trial. I went in the CCD level (people might remember I had my first real trial a few weeks ago where I DID bomb but had a good experience with a learning curve and good advice from kindly judges).

Anyway today our judge was being judged themselves (to get a judge certificate) so he was pretending it was a 'real' trial and marking us accordingly (at a previous fun day they would only mark you down so far). Fair enough I thought having been in one real trial already.

I am sorry to say that our heeling was even more crap than it had been at the real trial a few weeks ago. She can heel well - but alas not today. Oh well. Life's like that.

But now to my query re the recall. As far as I saw she did it well. Came on the single command and sat before me (perhaps a bit skew-wiff, perhaps not as close as she should, but she sure bounded up to me and sat). I did the return and maybe she moved a bit? Dunno. I was keeping my head up as told I should.

anyway I check the scores an hour late and wtf? Got an "nq" on the recall? Why? Nothing was explained in the ring. And other dogs didn't come until the 3rd call and then only wandered up slowly.

What on earth did I do wrong? What makes a recall an 'nq' in a trial?

Edited September 16, 2007 by KismetKat

[Sayreovi]

A dog running in the other direction i think would be an NQ

Perhaps the judge made a mistake between your scores and another dog?

Something that only can be answered by the judge because from what i can read you (or the dog) didnt do anything that should be awarded a NQ.

[KismetKat]

Thanks toller. Now I've sat back and thought about it some more there IS one thing that could have made it an issue. The task is to walk forward (off lead) halt (and the dog sits) and then leave for the recall. Dunno where my dogs head was today but instead of sitting she dropped. The judge got me to try again and she dropped again. Third try and she sat and then I left her for the recall.

Perhaps that is what NQ'd me?

But then again this would make me argue against the philosophy of what is a good recall in Obedience trials. Surely the important thing is the dog comes when its dang well called? I NQ'd at the trial a few weeks ago cos the dog was too enthusiastic (my fault, too much voice) and run past me before coming to a halt by me. Yet dogs who think about it and wonder up still get a score (albeit low). Surely the point of a recall is the dog comes? For obedience trailling to have some meaning in real life doggy situations I would like to see the philosophy of grading changed to reflect a good score for a dog who comes straight away (not matter how sloppily) from one that favours a preferred style.

What do others think?

[MrsD]

Im presuming you got a 0?

Zero score in CCD for a dog that fails to remain in the sit position, does not come on the first command or a dog that anticipates the command to come.

My guess is either that she lifted her bum after you left her & you didn't see it or she came before you gave the command - VERY easy to do if you are inexperienced & you wouldnt even know it, the dog will more likely move as soon as the hands or arms move rather than responding to the voice & that = an 0.

[leopuppy04]

When you were walking away from the dog - it may have gotten up and sat again?!?! That is a likely occurence?

Did you say 'wait' when you returned around the dog?!

Did it come on first command?

Did you say it's name when you called it?!

[MrsD]

Thanks toller. Now I've sat back and thought about it some more there IS one thing that could have made it an issue. The task is to walk forward (off lead) halt (and the dog sits) and then leave for the recall. Dunno where my dogs head was today but instead of sitting she dropped. The judge got me to try again and she dropped again. Third try and she sat and then I left her for the recall.

Perhaps that is what NQ'd me?

But then again this would make me argue against the philosophy of what is a good recall in Obedience trials. Surely the important thing is the dog comes when its dang well called? I NQ'd at the trial a few weeks ago cos the dog was too enthusiastic (my fault, too much voice) and run past me before coming to a halt by me. Yet dogs who think about it and wonder up still get a score (albeit low). Surely the point of a recall is the dog comes? For obedience trailling to have some meaning in real life doggy situations I would like to see the philosophy of grading changed to reflect a good score for a dog who comes straight away (not matter how sloppily) from one that favours a preferred style.

What do others think?

OK the scenario you just mentioned is completely different to what you first explained!

You will loose points on various things when you do a recall & it sounds like you most definitely did enough things wrong that you would get an NQ score.

The recall includes the positioning of the dog & the dog sitting in front correctly for a reason. If your dog fails those parts of the exercise then no, it shouldnt get a qualifying score because it has made enough mistakes to get less than half the points.

If your dog had only failed to sit once it probably would have qualified but it didnt, part of the obedience rules state that dogs should not recieve qualifiing score or titles upon work of poor quality.

[KismetKat]

leo - once she's told to stay she's pretty good (tho not today in the sit/stay - very unusual for her. But it was very windy and it was bothering her). But in the recall she definitely seemed in the same spot I had left her.

I didn't say 'wait' on my return around her - isn't that a 2nd command? (so lose points?)

She came on "come" without using her name first. In my first trial the other week I used name then recall - but apparently did not allow enough time between the two - so this time (as I could see I had her attentiuon) just opted for "come".

Like I said in my 2nd post - now I have been sorting things out in my mind (it had all blurred together) I think the dropping at the start of the exercise might have been my problem.

Still 1) it would have been nice to have been told rather than me guessing and 2) I wonder about the priorities in Obedience

[KismetKat]

OK the scenario you just mentioned is completely different to what you first explained!

You will loose points on various things when you do a recall & it sounds like you most definitely did enough things wrong that you would get an NQ score.

The recall includes the positioning of the dog & the dog sitting in front correctly for a reason. If your dog fails those parts of the exercise then no, it shouldnt get a qualifying score because it has made enough mistakes to get less than half the points.

If your dog had only failed to sit once it probably would have qualified but it didnt, part of the obedience rules state that dogs should not recieve qualifiing score or titles upon work of poor quality.

Thanks Mrs D

Like I said just before, it was all a bit of a blur. Now I've sorted out in my mind what really happened, and your explanation, it now makes sense. Mind you, doesn't stop me from thinking that a dog that actually comes on the first command (no matter what else) should at least get a better score than a dog that vaguely wanders over when it feels like it.

Grrr

[Mystiqview]

A number of 'minor' faults can also lead to a NQ.

A dog who fails to sit when you walk off and halt is major point loss. Same could be if dog sits, stands then sits again before you get to position.

If the dog comes in croocked, minor fault

If the dog does not sit straight or too far back, minor fault

If you do not leave the required 3 second pause between Rover... Come... cant think if minor or major fault. WOuld have to pull out my rule book on that one.

[BC]

You would've got NQ for the dropping at the start, but the judge has let you still have another go and complete the excersise for training purposes it sounds. In a trial situation, if my dog did not do it correctly from the start, or at worst the second time (after knowing I already NQ'd) I would pull him out completely and not continue at all.

Remember, you're judged on the full excersise, including lead out, and correct positioning of the dog throughout the entire excersise.

If you were not judged on this you could just take your dog anywhere in the ring, put it in any position and as long as it came to you when you called you would get a pass. This would make for more confusion when judging etc as there would not be really any set rule to base points on ? The main part of the excersise is the actual recall, but also the control you have over your dog and the focus your dog has on you, and its ability to follow all of your commands correctly.

It can be very disheartening, when your dog does the actual task at hand perfectly, but has either lost a few points or NQ'd on the lead up, or a silly finish etc.

Also, I know what you mean when a dog just wanders on in and yours is running flat out, but loses points for something.

I think it is up to the discretion of the judge as to if they think the dog is too slow and they should deduct some points.

[Mystiqview]

In answer to your question re the priorities.

Obedience trialling is a percission sport. So accordingly, each move is based on the accuracy of each exercise. It does not have much relevance to the home life where all a person really cares about is whether the dog comes when it is called.. They don't care if it comes crocked and does not sit infront.. All they want is for it to come. Likewise for all other exercises.

If I did not trial myself.. I would only want for the same things.. I hear around the traps that some people when they are talking only aim for the qualifying score... if you only aim for 170.. that is all you get.. If you aim for the full 200 marks...you have better choice of getting toward that standard.

Why throw 30 points for near enough is good enough??

[Mystiqview]

BC.

I actually had a dog attack mine in the ring while doing dumbell over the jump. Some idiot was standing right near the ropes with his dog on a long lead... Just as jemma went over the jump to pick up the dumbell, his dog ran in and got her...

Unfortunately it was her first go in open, and apart from the fact that the whole exercise shook her and she also peed in the ring (another -10 points) the bloke got off scot free and was not even offered the chance to redo the exercise.. although after that... did not think she would have.

Took her ages for her to be able to dumbell in ring.

Tis all disheartening... but that is trialling. There is always another

[BC]

BC.

I actually had a dog attack mine in the ring while doing dumbell over the jump. Some idiot was standing right near the ropes with his dog on a long lead... Just as jemma went over the jump to pick up the dumbell, his dog ran in and got her...

Unfortunately it was her first go in open, and apart from the fact that the whole exercise shook her and she also peed in the ring (another -10 points) the bloke got off scot free and was not even offered the chance to redo the exercise.. although after that... did not think she would have.

Took her ages for her to be able to dumbell in ring.

Tis all disheartening... but that is trialling. There is always another

Poor Jemma girl Things like that really annoy me. When Cooper is not in the ring he is in his crate, or with me away from everyone working. Even before entering, I take that few minutes while I'm ring side to get him focused on me.

To me this is just common sense Would've been nice to get another go but as you said, she probably would have been too nervous and shaken by that stage Borders are sensitive little souls too !!

Fortunately nothing like that has happened to Cooper (yet )

Yep, the wonderful world of trialling.

Edited September 16, 2007 by BC

[leopuppy04]

leo - once she's told to stay she's pretty good (tho not today in the sit/stay - very unusual for her. But it was very windy and it was bothering her). But in the recall she definitely seemed in the same spot I had left her.

I didn't say 'wait' on my return around her - isn't that a 2nd command? (so lose points?)

She came on "come" without using her name first. In my first trial the other week I used name then recall - but apparently did not allow enough time between the two - so this time (as I could see I had her attentiuon) just opted for "come".

Like I said in my 2nd post - now I have been sorting things out in my mind (it had all blurred together) I think the dropping at the start of the exercise might have been my problem.

Still 1) it would have been nice to have been told rather than me guessing and 2) I wonder about the priorities in Obedience

Thats cool KK - usually when the question comes up - these are usually what the handlers missed out on . A judge will usually tell you if the dog 'breaks' while you walk away and perhaps end the exercise (happened to me once in the SFE - he HAD an itch *sigh*)

I think it was the drops - as she dropped the first time... then the judge would have taken off a few minor pts - but because she did it twice - then it was a NQ ;)

[Kowai]

Augh I always mess it up and say "Come! Zach!" Ooooops!

Listening to all this has made me realised I look down at him too much.. Need to keep my head up.. Hmm we need to work on his heeling too :D

This wasn't at a trial, but yesterday I was training with Zach at a new park. I had him sit and I walked away for the recall. I turn around and he's looking at me. I call him...... He just sits there! Then sloowwwlllyy he gets up and sloowwwlllyy he walks towards me.. Oh, he stops for a sniff.. Okay lets keep walking.... He slowly sits. I tell him to return - sloowwwlllyy he walks around me, stops for a sniff... then slowly finishes! ;) Imagine if he did that at a trial!

[BC]

Augh I always mess it up and say "Come! Zach!" Ooooops!

Listening to all this has made me realised I look down at him too much.. Need to keep my head up.. Hmm we need to work on his heeling too :D

This wasn't at a trial, but yesterday I was training with Zach at a new park. I had him sit and I walked away for the recall. I turn around and he's looking at me. I call him...... He just sits there! Then sloowwwlllyy he gets up and sloowwwlllyy he walks towards me.. Oh, he stops for a sniff.. Okay lets keep walking.... He slowly sits. I tell him to return - sloowwwlllyy he walks around me, stops for a sniff... then slowly finishes! ;) Imagine if he did that at a trial!

Easy fixed, when you call him and he decides to just wander over, turn the other way and run, run like the wind.

He will think you are running away from him and soon pick up the speed. The next few recalls should be OK after that.

I still do this training with Cooper sometimes, just to keep things interesting, or I will get someone to hold him when I call "come", until he is that pumped up, when they let go he runs like the wind towards me.

[Guest rhapsodical78]

Was this at Southern Obedience? I think I may have been in the same trial as you, if this is the case.

Edited September 17, 2007 by rhapsodical78

[Mystiqview]

Actually I just love the people who say you cannot eye your dog.....

BCS actually LOOK for eye contact and get lost if you do not look at them.

Although I have to learn to look at my dog through the corner of my eye while still looking up

Thanks BC.. yeah I am the same if I am waiting to go into the ring. I wait well back.. IF I am not up next.. I am no where near the ring with my dog.. Call it manners.