Clicker Training

[NaturallyWild]

The dog is working for the click, the click indicates the correct behaviour and means reward come and get it.

If the dog did a detour on the way like did a wee before getting his treat it certainly doesnt mean i rewarded the wee otherwise wouldnt it happen all the time unlike what i actually clicked for?

For my dogs the click ends the behaviour. They break out of whatever position once the click has been heard because they know the behaviour is finished, what they did was correct and so they get a treat.

I dont throw food for them because in a way getting the food of me is also secondary indication that its finished and we can start again.

Sorry i dont quite understand some of your examples.....are you talking about obedience or agility in regards to the jump?

Are you using the clicker primarily as a release cue eg "free"??? If so then yes your use is true, but do you reinforce after every click? How much time does there tend to be between click and reinforcement? In this case the clicker is possibly not being used purely as a bridge or marker, but it does probably have some secondary reinforcement value. I still think that there are behaviours that get linked between when you click and when you reinforce, in your case you get orientation to you after the click and will possibly effect how they orientate when giving the first behaviour. Hard to know without seeing.

The jumping i was thinking about was more agility where they need to continue running straight (often away from you) unless signaled otherwise. If you were to try and build the same behaviour without throwing the food it would take a lot longer and would be hard pressed creating as much drive over the jump.

[Cosmolo]

LP- i have to disagree about the broad example. If i am teaching the broad and they don't complete the exercise correctly, they don't get the reward. My dogs are drive junkies, desperately want the reward and work out what they need to do to get it. As long as the criteria is clear and you don't reward half efforts, i can't see how you would have that problem.

[leopuppy04]

LP- i have to disagree about the broad example. If i am teaching the broad and they don't complete the exercise correctly, they don't get the reward. My dogs are drive junkies, desperately want the reward and work out what they need to do to get it. As long as the criteria is clear and you don't reward half efforts, i can't see how you would have that problem.

Hmm... i'm confused - did you mean this comment:

Not always - sometimes it is the 'anticipation' of the reward, and if that reward is consistent enough - they are 'reinforced' for the 'cutting' of the broad or the constant sitting after a stand (because they have moved from the initial position). Keep in mind, this isn't solely for clicker training only - it happens with verbal markers too

What I mean is if they are 'reinforced' enough for the curved jump. So say for example you 'clicked' (and using the theory that every click equals a reward) and every time rewarded from yourself, if the dog 'cut' and you still clicked, people are (or feel) compelled to give the treat anyway. To get myself out of that situation - I will throw the food if I click the jump, or hold off on the click if I want the 'front'.... same if I was using the yes. So I don't see the 'rewarding' half efforts

In terms of what I said with verbal markers - that I guess was to say that this form of 'bad' training is not isolated alone to clickers. For example - those that say 'yes' for a good drop but fumble for the reward and reward the sit. So the dog eventually 'drops' and sits up again immediately.

I guess what I was trying to draw was that the position of the reward is not linked to clicker training alone, but is also true for other forms of training.

A dog may anticipate a reward and if they are not rewarded for it, they won't repeat it (or repeat it for long).... but in the clicker example, if they cut the broad and you already clicked, so rewarded (because what happens after the click doesn't matter) the behaviour will eventually develop into a 'curved' or 'cutting' jump IMO. I was trying to point out that in cases, what happens after the click *does* matter (ie: agreeing with NW)..

I think i've just made that more confusing

[NaturallyWild]

LP- i have to disagree about the broad example. If i am teaching the broad and they don't complete the exercise correctly, they don't get the reward. My dogs are drive junkies, desperately want the reward and work out what they need to do to get it. As long as the criteria is clear and you don't reward half efforts, i can't see how you would have that problem.

Yes but you can short cut the amount of "figuring out" the dog has to do by manipulating the environment and how the reward is given. This can also help prevent some erroneous behaviours that the dog believes is part of the complete behaviour. Not that it is always necessary but how the reinforcement is given and also what rules you create about how having it will have some influence on behaviour.

Cosmolo you are very right that the criteria (and all the other factors) needs to be very clear, but you also want it to be moderately easy to achieve (in general).

[Kelpie-i]

There is no right or wrong way to use a clicker, whether you use it to mark the behaviour or as a release at the end of an exercise. Whichever way you use it, you must be consistent with it.

I use a clicker all the time, especially with my youngest boy who I am doing a lot of foundation work with (not agility foundation). I make a point to use a marker word as well therefore he is conditioned to both. So if I don't have my clicker, the Yes word works just as well (but not AS well as the clicker).

Cosmolo is correct that setting your criteria and rewarding for no less is the only way to get the behaviour you desire in whatever you may be training. It's when we become complacent that we steer away from our criteria and end up with problems, regardless of which method or tool we use.

Arya: It is my belief that it is kind of 'horses for courses'. Some dogs are more suited to clicker and some owners/handlers/trainers too. This is what I have found. Brilliant for some people and their dogs. Others, a very poor second to voice.

I'm going to disagree somewhat here Arya. I offer a Boarding/Training service and therefore have worked with hundreds of dogs over the years. I have used a clicker for 95% of those dogs with absolutely no problems and with much success. The dogs learn soooo much quicker with the clicker, especially when you are given a very short time span to teach them in some cases. The only dogs I found did not respond to a clicker were those dogs with absolutely no food or toy drive and those dogs who where extremely timid/frightful that they jumped at the sound of the clicker. Otherwise, no problems whatsoever. I also use a clicker with aggression cases and find it extremely useful for handlers who have no voice (enthusiasm) when training.

I think the better statement to make here is that it's not the case of whether or not the clicker is suited to all, it's more the case of whether it is preferred.

Downside, it can make you become lazy to praise, but some dogs couldn't give 2 cahoots about pats especially when the owner is dishing out pats every 5 mins for nothing.

Edited September 14, 2007 by Kelpie-i

[Sayreovi]

Are you using the clicker primarily as a release cue eg "free"??? If so then yes your use is true, but do you reinforce after every click? How much time does there tend to be between click and reinforcement? In this case the clicker is possibly not being used purely as a bridge or marker, but it does probably have some secondary reinforcement value. I still think that there are behaviours that get linked between when you click and when you reinforce, in your case you get orientation to you after the click and will possibly effect how they orientate when giving the first behaviour. Hard to know without seeing.

The jumping i was thinking about was more agility where they need to continue running straight (often away from you) unless signaled otherwise. If you were to try and build the same behaviour without throwing the food it would take a lot longer and would be hard pressed creating as much drive over the jump.

I suppose in a way it is used as a release cue as well as a reward for distance exercises, but it isnt primarily a 'free' cue, the dog is coming back to me to get a treat is quicker then if i was to go to the dog in position.

Yes the dog may be rewarded in position but what if the dog breaks when you are walking up to it, will you still reward for the dog breaking? Especially if the dog doesnt consider the click an end of behaviour?

A click is always followed by a reward, i have one dog that if he wasnt rewarded once for a click wouldnt care about the ones that follow, its a pain especially when i sometimes click a little slow for the wrong behaviour but i still have to reward.

I dont know about the agility, i dont throw food for jumps and one dog will continue to drive out away from me waiting for the click at the end.

Its where the cue 'go' is used by me.

Ive confused myself

Edited September 14, 2007 by tollersowned

[Arya]

Arya: It is my belief that it is kind of 'horses for courses'. Some dogs are more suited to clicker and some owners/handlers/trainers too. This is what I have found. Brilliant for some people and their dogs. Others, a very poor second to voice.

I'm going to disagree somewhat here Arya. I offer a Boarding/Training service and therefore have worked with hundreds of dogs over the years. I have used a clicker for 95% of those dogs with absolutely no problems and with much success. The dogs learn soooo much quicker with the clicker, especially when you are given a very short time span to teach them in some cases. The only dogs I found did not respond to a clicker were those dogs with absolutely no food or toy drive and those dogs who where extremely timid/frightful that they jumped at the sound of the clicker. Otherwise, no problems whatsoever. I also use a clicker with aggression cases and find it extremely useful for handlers who have no voice (enthusiasm) when training.

I think the better statement to make here is that it's not the case of whether or not the clicker is suited to all, it's more the case of whether it is preferred.

Downside, it can make you become lazy to praise, but some dogs couldn't give 2 cahoots about pats especially when the owner is dishing out pats every 5 mins for nothing.

But wouldn't this rather be lack of skill with the handler? Isn't it better to teach the handler to use voice tone and body language as part of the reward? How on earth can you increase the level of enthusiasm with the clicker when you are performing a complex series of behaviours, or decrease it depending on the dog's reaction you want? Here's an example I recently did, helping a friend to teach her dog to carry a basket out to a toy, place the toy in the basket, then carry basket with toy in it back to the handler. Now this is several complex behaviours. The dog was losing it, lacked confidence, could not chain the behaviours together well without stuffing up. The word 'yes' was the conditioned reinforcer. So dog carries basket out to toy. Small, calm, 'yes'. Dog is rewarded, due to Pavlovian conditioning. Second behaviour - dog places toy in basket. Slightly more enthusiastic 'yes', good old Pavlov again helps us out. Handler smiling, slightly lowering body position. Dog has now performed second behaviour that required considerable coordination and needed calmer response so second 'yes' coudl be more enthusiastic and include change in body position. Dog carries basket back to handler 'YES" and food reward. Big yes, handler stands up straight and roughs dog up, and gives food reward, then invites dog to jump up, thus increasing enthusiasm by elevating status. How can a clicker compete with this, when teaching at a higher level? It can't, sorry. Great for simpler excercises perhaps but for a higher level of training, I don't like to use it. In saying this, I've seen Mary Rae use it exceptionally well. But I belive Luke Hura doesn't. So I will agree that it is personal choice and yes, almost all dogs will work with it but will they really work and learn to the best of their ability at higher levels??? Hmmm, interesting to think about

[Kavik]

Arya

One of the more complicated tricks I've taught my guys was done with a clicker. I taught Zoe to go and pick up a toilet paper roll and put it in the bin. She already knew how to retrieve. I backchained it. I taught her to target the bin, then to put her head in the bin, then to hold the toilet paper roll right over the bin and put it in, then increased the distance from the bin, then put the toilet paper roll on the ground and sent her to it. She does this very enthusiastically It is one of her favourites (and a favourite for those watching too!).

[Arya]

Arya

One of the more complicated tricks I've taught my guys was done with a clicker. I taught Zoe to go and pick up a toilet paper roll and put it in the bin. She already knew how to retrieve. I backchained it. I taught her to target the bin, then to put her head in the bin, then to hold the toilet paper roll right over the bin and put it in, then increased the distance from the bin, then put the toilet paper roll on the ground and sent her to it. She does this very enthusiastically It is one of her favourites (and a favourite for those watching too!).

Kavik, this sounds cool! And heaps of fun!!! But how did you reward her besides the clicker. As you backchained each step, did you do anything else? See, I just couldn't use the CR. I'd have to add another cue to the dog to indicate to them how they were going. I particularly find this important for excercises where the dog is required to work far away from you. So, even though you start off close, the body posture and word as you move further away and fade yourself out tells the dog that all is going well. With a clicker, do you then introduce a word like 'good' once the behaviours are chained together, just to reinforce at each chaining, until it is solid? Or do you stick with the clicker? I'm just curious. Using the clicker with the cat, the tricks I do are still very simple. Spin, beg, sit, jump thru a hoop. Using target stick. Just can't do this with dog. Even with target stick, I have used it to teach the dog to spin and then ditched it as my body was giving a better indicator. In other words she was targetting me rather than the stick. My hand. Only drawback... on marching, dog constantly tried to target my foot with her paw for a long time. Couldn't fade out as well as a stick.

ALL INTERESTING STUFF! Don't get me wrong, either. Just because I disagreed with Kelpie-i's disagreement I think that we are both right I think that probably, the mark of a good trainer is to learn that others have great ways too and to try everyone's ways and never be closed-minded. That way, you always have something to pull out when you need it in a training situation and what's more, you always respect other trainers and their methods

[Kavik]

I didn't use another cue to say how she was going. I had commands 'Bin' for going to the bin, 'Hold' for holding the toilet paper roll. But nothing to say she was going well. After the click, I would throw the food in a different direction so she had the chance (especially when targetting) to do it again.

The most difficult part was the end bit - getting her to go to the bin after picking up the toilet paper roll. Because I had already taught her to retrieve, she would bring it to me instead. That is where starting close to the bin and slowly increasing the distance to the bin helped.

[Kelpie-i]

But wouldn't this rather be lack of skill with the handler? Isn't it better to teach the handler to use voice tone and body language as part of the reward? How on earth can you increase the level of enthusiasm with the clicker when you are performing a complex series of behaviours, or decrease it depending on the dog's reaction you want?

Ayra, certainly a cause for good debate. I don't know about you, but I have met many people that, no matter what you do and say - talk to the cows come home about motivational praise and enthusiasm.....just don't have get it, have it, nor the inclination to even pretend to want to have it when training their dogs. Not everyone is wired the same and believe it or not, there are some who are very shy and reserved and actually become very embarrased when in a class situation to lavishly praise and reward their dogs. I currently have a young client who suffers panic attacks and will totally lose it if you approach her to see how she's going. She usually stays right away from the group and is extremely quiet - yet she tries very hard....anyway, you get what I mean.

When all else fails and short of me taking the dogs on myself, the clicker has always come to the rescue. For these people it is far easier to click and treat quietly, than to try to remember to use their marker word in one tone and then praise with another.

I am with Kavik on this one as you can certainly achieve outstanding results with a clicker - it's all in the application and, in all honesty, how much the user really knows about the clicker and it's full potential. It is definitely not designed for just basic skills.

Don't get me wrong, I use marker words all the time and in a normal class situation prefer not to use clickers. I will, however, recommend it to those I feel will benefit from it.

[jaybeece]

I'm a big fan of clickers, but definitely don't see them as a total solution for training. It's brilliant for teaching new tricks and refining existing ones, but for actual obedience I find voice a lot easier as I can vary my tone when needed.

I always click to mark the behaviour and then give a reward which is either food or a toy.

[Kelpie-i]

I'm a big fan of clickers, but definitely don't see them as a total solution for training

jaybeece, like I said in my earlier post, it's a case of "preference".

Edited September 16, 2007 by Kelpie-i

[jaybeece]

I'm a big fan of clickers, but definitely don't see them as a total solution for training

jaybeece, like I said in my earlier post, it's a case of "preference".

Eh? I didn't say it wasn't Each to their own, it's just not something that my dog responds to 100% of the time, but that's just him. I'm sure there are dogs out there that can't get enough of clickers for everything.