Clicker Training

[leopuppy04]

Ok - question time from me again.

I thought it would be nice to bring up this topic as I know that some months ago there was a huge influx of people who were keen on trying clicker training.

Soo.....

What is your method of using the clicker? (ie: every click = reward, click = end of behaviour etc,etc)

What do you think of it?

Love it or hate it?

Pros/ Cons?

I'm basically interested to hear what you think of the clicker if you are an old 'pro' at it, taken it up in the past few months or tried it and not liked it!

[BC]

I did a little bit of clicker training but never really continued with it. The main reason was to use something with a different sound to get a bit more excitement happening.

When training Cooper, I use "yes" then feed, when he is in the right position etc. When using clicker I clicked when I would usually say "yes" and fed after the click. So I substituted the word "yes" with a click.

When first training him with the clicker I would use it all, so he knew what it meant, but it got a bit confusing on my part saying "yes" click and feed but he got it in the end.

I never really continued as the clicker was just another thing I had to hold along with the lead and the food but Cooper still responds to it quite well.

[poodlefan]

I have charged a clicker and used it to some degree with my dogs over the years but I'm ambivalent about them for following reasons:

* Your average pet dog trainer has enough trouble juggling with a lead and treats. Add a clicker and its more fumbling and less focussing on their dog and what you're trying to teach them. Yes, once you show them to have the treats and the clicker in the same hand it's easier but it's not natural for a lot of people and they aren't easy to use for older or very young hands. Many trainers lack the precision timing requried to utilize one effectively. Frankly, I find a marker word as effective with most people and at least that is always with you - clickers ain't.

* I don't believe clickers are the most effective method of training all exercises.. yes, they are good for exercises where you are shaping but [and perhaps it's my lack of experience with the clicker] I don't find them useful for things like stays beyound a certain point, especially as distances start to climb.

* I personally find the frantic offering of behaviours that some primarily free shaping trained dogs display bloody annoying and I do tend to associate that with clicker use. I don't want frantic positional changes of sitting, bowing and downing if I'm trying to train something.. I want the dog to focus and follow a lure initially.

To me they can be a useful gadget but only in some circumstances. They are a better marker than a voice one in terms of consistency, but at least the voice one is always with you.

I'll confess to not having used one for some months now.

ETA: Like BC, I use "yes" as a marker word

Edited September 13, 2007 by poodlefan

[Cosmolo]

While i don't currently clicker train, i have done before so thought i could give my view. There are things i like about clicker training and things i don't- i think it suits some people more than others. For me, its such a habit to use a verbal marker that i find it hard to co ordinate with a clicker when i'm 'on the run'.

I think they are good for people who are newer to training sometimes as it can help them to get into the swing of using a marker of some kind. Its also fun and is good for low key people who find it hard to really reward the dog verbally.

Even then, i always want a verbal marker as well for times when the clicker is not handy and the dog does something great. I like being able to vary the intensity of the marker as well- i find it easier with voice than a clicker.

I can take my voice everywhere- even into trial rings- which i think is a big advantage. LP, have you got a verbal marker as well? If so, (and forgive my ignorance) why have both?

[Kavik]

I find the clicker really fun for teaching tricks, shaping, targetting etc as the dog is keen and happy and energetic about offering responses. And they have to think about it.

Sometimes it can be frustrating though if they don't offer the behaviour you want, and sometimes you can accidentally create behaviours you don't want. Some dogs take a while to catch on with shaping as well.

[leopuppy04]

Wow - i'm loving the replies already. I always love to hear what others have to say about particular tools & methods.

I'll cover 'me' first. I looove my clicker. Like PF - I would spend probably 1 session just on charging, then maybe the next 2 sessions doing about 5 charges before asking for something. Doesn't take the dogs long to figure out that click means food.

Whenever I click - food HAS to come. Even if it is accidental. As for a click ending a behaviour - I am not sure about this one and not sure if i'm doing it right. If I click and the dog then moves out of position that is fine.... but that tends to happen because I have thrown food or something. With a 'stay' for example - I can click the distance and return to give them the food - they won't have moved till they hear my release. Like I said - I don't know if i'm doing *that* part right, but it seems to work for us

I like the precision of the clicker. It has helped me shape things like - getting the quoits on the pole, covering your eyes etc and other really precise things that I wasn't able to get with the "yes". I find *personally* that my timing with the clicker, is better than my timing with my voice.

Having said that - I don't always use the clicker. I don't like the way that it can 'unintentionally' become a 'cue' for the dog - ie: like food in hand = reward, if you only train with a clicker, I fear that the dog will see 'clicker in hand' and I only work then. So I mix up my training with the clicker, voice, food etc,etc,etc. I like to use a whole variety of training tools . I guess the main place that I use the clicker would be 'trick training', 'precision training' and 'beginning training'....

Another downside of the clicker (as well as an upside) is the darn precision of it! Kinta is one very clicker savvy girlie - Leo is too, but K will only be shown something once and likely she'll offer it again. A couple of wrong clicks and oops! What have we trained?!?!?! I think you have to be very careful with your timing using clickers.

I don't think the clicker is the be all and end all, but I certainly enjoy using one, which at the end of the day I think is the main thing, rather than the method - if YOU enjoy doing it, the dog certainly is ;)

Now - to answer some points already raised:

* Your average pet dog trainer has enough trouble juggling with a lead and treats. Add a clicker and its more fumbling and less focussing on their dog and what you're trying to teach them. Yes, once you show them to have the treats and the clicker in the same hand it's easier but it's not natural for a lot of people and they aren't easy to use for older or very young hands. Many trainers lack the precision timing requried to utilize one effectively. Frankly, I find a marker word as effective with most people and at least that is always with you - clickers ain't.

Agreed. I don't recommend the clicker to the average pet dog trainer, but will to someone who I think capable of using one and already has the basics etc... or someone who wants to go far in their training. Usually when I train with the clicker I have the food on the bench/in my pocket, clicker in hand and no lead.... so all i'm holding is the clicker - hence why it doesn't *really* affect me, but can understand how it affects others. Timing is a big thing though (as mentioned before) so, I will only recommend one to someone who has their timing down pat (a simple "yes" seems to be more forgiving).

* I personally find the frantic offering of behaviours that some primarily free shaping trained dogs display bloody annoying and I do tend to associate that with clicker use. I don't want frantic positional changes of sitting, bowing and downing if I'm trying to train something.. I want the dog to focus and follow a lure initially.

Again - I agree - but to a degree. The free shaping exercise is not isolated only to clickers as you *could* do it with a 'yes'.... it's just that most that do these use a clicker to train it. But - my dogs will not offer 'randomly'.... I didn't want this, so although some see it as unnecessary, they have a 'working' command solely for free shaping - sort of a cue to say 'ok time to figure out what I want'. I also sit on the ground with them - so my posture is completely changed. AS yet I haven't had too many episodes where they 'offer' like mad - but I will tell them 'enough' if they start and I don't want it. So those cues are really helpful in that aspect.

;) - Hi Cosmo! Long time no see!

I can take my voice everywhere- even into trial rings- which i think is a big advantage. LP, have you got a verbal marker as well? If so, (and forgive my ignorance) why have both?

Totally agree. My voice is big with me too. ALL the time while i'm clicker training i'll be using my voice too. Yep - I sure do have a VM Cosmo.... I guess the reason I have both is I like the precision of the clicker and use it mainly for teaching and tricks. Once we get to proofing, I won't use the clicker as often.

On the whole - I like the enthusiasm I get from the clicker. Yes, it probably isn't solely just the clicker but I think the anticipation of the "ooh CLICK! What did I do!?!?! How can I get that treat again?!" enthusiasm is so rewarding for me and the dogs, I just love the method . I find I get more of that using the clicker than a simple "yes" or toy/ food play . I find the clicker excellent for focus work too - once that clicker comes out -they don't care about anything else but earning that click :D

ETA: just incase this post wasn't long enough I also love the clicker as I find the speed of them learning something is just sooo much faster. In under a week I have really solid foundations for scent work (ie: picking up each article), seekbacks (hide and seek games) and the d/b (almost full retrieve).... this was only through minimal repetitions. Again - I know this can be achieved without the clicker, but as the dogs really do get eager about it, I find it really helpful

Edited September 13, 2007 by leopuppy04

[JulesP]

My instructor had me using the clicker but then I got told off for using it at club so I haven't used it much since. Just sticking with the verbal 'yes'. My only real negative on the method is that I feel it has stopped me verbally praising my dogs as much as I used to.

[Tonymc]

My thoughts are that once again any Aid or Tool is only as good as the Operator.As other People have mentioned above, some people using a Clicker do not seem to be aware of the small time frame to mark behaviour. tony

[Cosmolo]

LP- why do you think the clicker gets faster results, arouses more enthusiasm etc than any other marker? Is it timing? (i find timing easier with voice, you with a clicker- no right no wrong but i don't find the clicker teaches anything faster or gets the dogs more worked up) I struggle with the concept of the clicker vs voice and why the clicker would be better- except for people whose timing improves with the clicker.

I also tend to train in drive and am too lazy to condition the clicker to a drive reward as i don't see the added benefit.

[Kavik]

I think the enthusiasm with the clicker has to do with the enthusiasm from the trainer - I find I am happy and enthusiastic when using the clicker, also because the clicker is often used to teach tricks which are more 'fun'. And dogs do seem to enjoy figuring out what got them that click!

[bordersrule]

I have used clicker to train all my dogs through the first stages of learning. It is a great starting point as it allows you to pin point the correct behaviour. Once they had learnt the step through clicker/food motivation I was then able to progress onto the verbal and hand controls. I now dont have to use clicker all the time only when teaching something new.

In the end though it all comes down to personal preference and what works best for you and your dog.

[leopuppy04]

LP- why do you think the clicker gets faster results, arouses more enthusiasm etc than any other marker? Is it timing? (i find timing easier with voice, you with a clicker- no right no wrong but i don't find the clicker teaches anything faster or gets the dogs more worked up) I struggle with the concept of the clicker vs voice and why the clicker would be better- except for people whose timing improves with the clicker.

Partly because I think it makes me more animated in training if that makes sense. I used the 'yes' for about 12mths prior to using a clicker and although I was very enthusiastic about the 'yes' I never had a dog jump out of it's skin as if to say "oooh look at me - she just said YES, how clever am I?!", but I do with the clicker. If they hear the click - they whip around as if to say 'what did I get that for' and try and do it again....

I think it is part of the training paired with the clicker rather than the tool itself. For our training - the clicker comes only when there is a promise of food, but with the "yes" food may be there or it may not be. So having said that - if I were to train solely with a "yes" and provide food every time I said "yes" then I believe you would get the same result.

The other reason is I think the 'free shaping' or the 'shaping' training I have done with the clicker - and again, I never did it without. Before it was all luring. The clicker provides one clear sound, which I think helps, plus the precise timing helps the dog gain faster results. Since I pretty much changed from 'luring' to more 'shaping' (be it free shaping or just approximation) at the same time, I can't say it is one over the other, and if you were to do the same with the yes, I bet you would get the same result. I don't think you gain anything from the clicker, unless you are simply someone like me, who feels in themselves that they are getting better timing from it and thus, training improves if that makes any sense....

I also tend to train in drive and am too lazy to condition the clicker to a drive reward as i don't see the added benefit.

Interesting concept. I too would be unlikely to train a clicker with a toy, only because you get fewer repetitions. You can't do as many because you have a good play in between exercises. For something new and complex, I fear that the dog may loose the connections between behaviours because of the break to play. For us, when we train, the dogs get a big play at the end of the session.

[PAX]

I love the clicker and use it to train all new things. Once they understand all parts of the exercise I change to a verbal marker. I don't think my dogs give a toss what I use but I find the clicker much more precise at isolating what it is that I am trying to teach. I taught my dog to get my car keys in a couple of sessions with a clicker, I'm sure I wouldn't of been able to help them understand as quick with a verbal marker. I did teach them to get the clicker with a verbal marker........lol.

I also think it is really fun.

I don't like them for new handlers because as PF mentioned it is just another thing for them to hold and fumble. I have always wanted to do a class and let people clicker train each other so they understand how to use it better. When I first started using the clicker I practised on my son to get a better concept of it. He was a very good training partner.

I am not so sure about free shaping. When I say freeshaping I am talking about when people sit there with a container of treats and click what they like while the dog is frantically offereing different behaviours. I have seen dogs do this and appear quite stressed.

[laffi]

I use the clicker to teach a new behavior and find it fantastic . In fact my "yes" is not as efficient as my click, I would say because my timing with the clicker is much more precise. Laffi take much longer to learn new things if I use "yes" rather than the clicker.

I don't always click if my dogs already know the behavior, I just reward. However if I do change the environment and practice there a new or "fresh" behavior I try to have my clicker there.

I always click and treat. However if I click by mistake I don't treat. I used to but after watching Bob Bailey DVD I don't anymore. If I click my mistake I go any bang my head on the wall

I am such a clicker addict I even have favorite clickers lol. At home I use IClicker and love it because it's soft. In the fields I use Triple Crown Clicker, it's louder and I also like the shape of it.

I never have my dogs on lead when I clicker train, I have treats in the pocket or pouch so the clicker is the only thing I am holding.

[bridgie_cat]

I have found it great for teaching new behaviours/obstacles... and it ends behaviour and a treat after every click.

I used it for a little while during agility runs, but stopped because it made less sense to click for an entire run than it did to click for an exact movement... still bring it out if the run includes an obstacle we are learning at the time.

I use "yes" as a mark that she is doing it right - but keep going - for obstacles with several parts and the CLICK for the complete obstacle (or CLICK for complete up to where we have learnt at that point...) as it ends behaviour - still attempt to feed in position though...

Good points:

-Creates enthusiasm

-More definite than "yes" - ie pinpoints the movement & sounds like nothing else so she KNOWS to come get a treat

-Better and faster understanding than I have gotten by leading with food or placing in position as she is thinking about what she is doing that is getting her clicks!

-Training is fast and fun for both of us! The step by step build = lots of correct reps and less frustrating than corrections or having to ignore lots of incorrect attempts at more complex behaviours... if that made sense!

Bad points:

-My unco self = bad at holding treats, clicker AND directing the dog...

-Impatient as I am, I am often too tempted to jump ahead steps... the correct build and proofing of each step takes a while...

Overall - reallly happy that I was introduced to this method of training! Dont even have to use the clicker - it is the theory behind it that is good.

[NaturallyWild]

I use the clicker when i have planned a new behaviour i am trying to teach. I provides much more clarity and precision to what i am asking - and in turn requires me to focus much more on what i am asking because i will reward every click, even the bad or accidental ones (like Laffi said ).

The clicker is more effective (as long as it is not an aversive noise to the dog) in marking because of a few things. The sound that you get from a clicker (the 2 sharp clicks) is a sound that universally gets animals attentions as short repeated sounds are used as "be alert and pay attention" warning signals in the wild where as longer continuous sounds serve as freeze or be inconspicuous signals (i should double check the research done on this to see if there was anyhting else involved). The other reason is purely just because there is less variation compared to our voice that gets used all the time and probably often use the marker word without consequence. Some people believe that a voice marker is better because you can create different meanings with the one marker word - i think that although there can be benefit in providing a socially rewarding aspect to using your voice, it can also create another level of complexity for the dog to deal with, and reduces the effectiveness of providing a simple marker of the behaviour you want. The more complex you make it for yourself and the dog, the harder it will be to teach the behaviour.

My explination of clicker training is that the click simply marks the behaviour, it does not end the behaviour. What tends to "end" the behaviour is a prompt by you to do something else or a history of behaviour after the click to do something to get the reward. The click marks the action, the reward marks for position. So if you click and then take several seconds to give the reward and they are doing different things you are rewarding those behaviours. If you were continually reward in one position, then that position will become a part of the behaviour.

I think they are excellent for new handlers particularly if they are taught how to use them first, but not at the same time as trying to achieve a specific behaviour (these are 2 seperate things). It teaches the handlers how important timing, criterior and rates of reinforcement are.

In saying that i will not use a clicker or marker in many occasions because the reward itself can be given with enough precision and timing or also when i have no need for an exact behaviour, just a rough one. I utilise the clicker in different training techniques - luring/targeting and/or shaping, etc, which ever provides the best clarity and quickest option for the behaviour i am after.

Some people also poo-poo clicker training because it can create a dog that is "frustrated", shuts down, or constantly offers behaviours. It has nothing to do with the clicker and everything to do with how you reinforce (eg only using poorly performed free shaping - bad timing, criteria and reinforcement).

[leopuppy04]

My explination of clicker training is that the click simply marks the behaviour, it does not end the behaviour. What tends to "end" the behaviour is a prompt by you to do something else or a history of behaviour after the click to do something to get the reward. The click marks the action, the reward marks for position. So if you click and then take several seconds to give the reward and they are doing different things you are rewarding those behaviours. If you were continually reward in one position, then that position will become a part of the behaviour.

I partially disagree on this point. I don't believe you *always* have to reward in position although yes, sometimes it does help. But for some exercises, such as using a phone book for rear end awareness or 'finding' heel - throwing the food had been a great help. It sets the dog up for an opportunity for another reward. HAving said that - if the dog is offering other positions post click and you have consistently rewarded that, then yes, the dogs will think that part of the behaviour.

Some people also poo-poo clicker training because it can create a dog that is "frustrated", shuts down, or constantly offers behaviours. It has nothing to do with the clicker and everything to do with how you reinforce (eg only using poorly performed free shaping - bad timing, criteria and reinforcement).

Excellent point - I agree completely

[poodlefan]

Naturally Wild:

Some people also poo-poo clicker training because it can create a dog that is "frustrated", shuts down, or constantly offers behaviours. It has nothing to do with the clicker and everything to do with how you reinforce (eg only using poorly performed free shaping - bad timing, criteria and reinforcement).

Point taken. It just goes to show that like other training tools, it's how you use them that makes all the difference.

Man but I do hate that frantic offering of behaviours though...

[leopuppy04]

Man but I do hate that frantic offering of behaviours though...

Same here PF - and to a degree I agree with Pax (?) who said that it can cause a mild amount of anxiety. If the dog is offering behaviours at ANY time, it clearly doesn't have an understanding of what you want etc,etc.

Do you see a lot of it?

[poodlefan]

Man but I do hate that frantic offering of behaviours though...

Same here PF - and to a degree I agree with Pax (?) who said that it can cause a mild amount of anxiety. If the dog is offering behaviours at ANY time, it clearly doesn't have an understanding of what you want etc,etc.

Do you see a lot of it?

No, I don't. Most people I know don't use a lot of free shaping with their dogs. Or, if they do, it seems they do it properly. However, I've seen it enough to dislike it intensely. It's mindless, almost obsessive behaviour at its worst.

I think most trained dogs will offer behaviour at times, especially if they have been trained using positive motivational techniques. It's the almost panic like offering that I dislike. Mind you I think the saddest conditioned behaviour around in dog training is learned helplessness and I've seen that too.

Edited September 13, 2007 by poodlefan