Springer Spaniel

[Clyde]

Has anyone here has this done before or knows anything extra about this surgery. My friends Springer is undergoing this next week. I have done some reading and found out that the resection doesn't stop the infections at all, they merely open the canal up for easier cleaning??

The dog also has ongoing skin infections. He is a really smelly boy!

[nellbell]

Years ago I had a beautiful German Shepard (they all are) who developed Otitis in his ears, this became quite chronic. He was taken to the vet (the clinic at Sydney University who were fantastic) and no drops or medication fixed this problem. He ended up having a similar operation that at the time cost a huge amount of money (not that it mattered).

This unfortunately did not fix the problem. He spent most of his time grinding his head into the ground due to his ears, it was terrible, then he developed hematoma's in his ears because of this. The vet who was looking after him was one of the leading professors at the Uni, and they even wrote a paper on his condition as it was so unusual. Prick eared dogs do not normally get this as the ear has airflow and ventilation etc, it is mainly the the droopy eared dogs, like spaniels that are prone to this.

Sadly we ended up having to put our poor tortured dog to sleep as he had absolutely no quality of life, it was heart breaking watching him suffer. We tried every thing that was possible. The last resort was to basically remove his entire inner ear which would have made him deaf, but there was no guarantee that this would have fixed the problem.

[Dogsfevr]

We groom/board a few dogs that have had this done & my personnal opinion is they where worse afterwards.

There are many alternative treatments i would be doing before this

[Clyde]

Thanks guys.

So NellBell, did your GSD continue to have ear infections or was the head rubbing/shaking due to discomfort from the surgery? I am sorry to hear of his outcome

Showdog, by worse you mean the infections were worse?

What alternative treatments would you try?

I initially thought it was a great idea, the poor dog really does suffer but after a lot of googling I am not so sure now, which is why I am desperately interested in any advice or opinions as the dog is booked in this week!

[nellbell]

Thanks guys.

So NellBell, did your GSD continue to have ear infections or was the head rubbing/shaking due to discomfort from the surgery? I am sorry to hear of his outcome

Showdog, by worse you mean the infections were worse?

What alternative treatments would you try?

I initially thought it was a great idea, the poor dog really does suffer but after a lot of googling I am not so sure now, which is why I am desperately interested in any advice or opinions as the dog is booked in this week!

Hi Dru,

My poor dog rubbed and shook his head prior to and after the operation. It really made no difference. The only time it stopped was when he was still recovering at the vet clinic and they kept him somewhere quiet in a crate. When he got home, he was thoroughly pampered with the works including most probably chicken soup (without bones of course) and things were looking good for a little while as he was kept inside during recovery. After a week or so when things were healed and settled so to speak, he more or less started being agitated by the ear condition again. The vets were pretty much at a loss as to why nothing worked. The surgery itself didn't create any more or less issues.

If your friend is thinking this op will fix everything, I hope it does for their sake, but in my experience it was pretty much an incredibly expensive waste of time and probably more pain for the poor dog.

Maybe your friend should get a second opinion before deciding on this radical operation, I'm sure its costing a pretty penny.

Does the dog have otitis.

[Poodle wrangler]

I can think of a few things they can try (if they haven't already):

* Clipping ear fur inside and outside leathers (e.g. #10 blade). I did this to my mini poodle who had a mild ear infection. Viewed from behind, the ear looks like it sits further from his head (fur's gone).

* Malaseb; diluted 1:50 with water as a regular ear cleaner, plus antibiotics if prescirbed by vet.

* Pluck ear hair- a little ear powder makes this easier.

Friend of mine also had major ear chronic ear infections with a GSD. So bad that one vet recommended removing the eardrum (he didn't have that done). Nothing he tried was successful for long (many ears ago, don't know the specific treatments tried, sorry.).

[Kavik]

Diesel has allergies and also chronic ear problems related to his allergies Always scratching at his ears and shaking his head. Got an aural haematoma earlier in the year from this. It is very frustrating as the poor thing is always itchy and miserable, dirty and smelly no matter how often or not I bath him, do his ears or change his food to find something that helps. He is somewhat better when on cortisone, but still does scratch even when on it. Of course now it is spring so the worst time of year for him.

[Ashka]

I had one male Springer done but only one ear, was as good as gold afterwards with no further problems. His sire (Owned by my Vet) had to be done too, also one ear only and he was OK afterwards too.

In those two cases is was the best choice and there were no further infection problems.

With a smelly, itchy dog I'd be changing the dogs diet first.

Edited September 9, 2007 by Ashka

[Dogsfevr]

What do they feed,\??

How often do they clip the ears??

What is there maintance problem??

Regarding the dogs they still got infections & so much harder to clean out

[Clyde]

He is on dry food (Advance?) it seems to be the best they've found for him from when they did an elimination diet a few years back. I've suggested BARF patties but they have egg in them, her son has life threatening allergies to eggs, nuts, dairy so they need to be careful about what they take in to the home. The dogs won't eat bones, they try to bury them and then guard them. I'm all for the dogs having raw vegies/fruit etc and minced chicken carcasses which they haven't tried.

His ears don't get clipped very often, only when they're groomed. He is in a show clip, his ears are very full and long. He doesn't get regular medicated baths.

They have a stock pile of lotions/potions/antibiotics etc for his skin/ears. Personally I would clip the dog short all over, natural diet, regular medicated baths etc, but she also has two small boys and runs a large business so time is sparse. She has been led to believe that the op. will stop the ear from becoming infected. According to the vet it is a very aggressive form of bacteria and not one of the most common

ShowDog, would clipping the entire ear, inside and out help? I'm thinking he needs it done allover anyway as the rest of his body also gets fungal infections.

Rappi?? Are you out there pleeeeease.

[blacklabrador]

He is on dry food (Advance?) it seems to be the best they've found for him from when they did an elimination diet a few years back. I've suggested BARF patties but they have egg in them, her son has life threatening allergies to eggs, nuts, dairy so they need to be careful about what they take in to the home.

Most people who feed BARF have never been near BARF patties. If they care about the dog's wellbeing they will find an acceptable way of feeding him natural food. I agree with the minced chicken frames etc. It may take a couple of weeks of mixed feeding until he is totally on the new food but it will be well worth it.

If a dog (or a human) has bad allergies it takes MONTHS to detox their digestive system. They need to put him on a new, completely natural, raw diet and stick with it religiously for over three months. The dog may get worse for the first couple of weeks as he detoxes. His gut is probably extremely inflammed from all the grains he's been eating and it will take time to settle.

A natural diet sounds a helluva lot better than painful, expensive surgery. The natural diet will cure all his allergy problems, not just the ear ones.

[Clyde]

Thanks guys. She is going to start feeding BARF and has put off the surgery for now. She phoned her breeder who also agreed that if so many people are recommending BARF then it's definitely worth a shot. I've directed her to Tooheys thread with links to other BARF sites. :rolleyes:

[New Age Outlaw]

I had a little scruffy terrier that had this surgery many years ago...it was very successful and the infections he got after the op were never as bad (probably because we noticed them earlier and were able to clean them much more easily. He lived a long and happy life. :rolleyes:

[Dogsfevr]

Clipping the inside of the ears out every 4 weeks would help big time.The hair around the ear gets thick & stops the ear from breathing.When the infection hits the ear & its hairy the gunk sits on the hair as it oozes out & then just retransmitt to the ear.

Is the problem bodily worse in winter??Does he get wet alot & not dried off??

Its hard to say with the clipping off depending on his coat texture they may like the look which many people do & are entitled to & clipping a springers top coat can create all sorts of havoc,so if the top coat is a great one it would be better left than clipped.

Also does the dog have bad feet??Often with bad ears the dogs scratch the ears & transmit the infection to the feet,the feet arent treated so then it scratches the ear & the infection starts again.Also if the dog isnt groomed regularly they end up with hairy feet that pick up all sorts of grub of f the ground

Is it a yeasty type of infection??

Personally i do not believe BARF is the fixer of all things but depending on the current diet & treats can help because as we now allergies can be a result of many things.

Has the dog always had allergies??or has it only popped up since a set time??

Some of the flea/heartworm stuff can overload a sensitive dog.

There are so many things but with ears its maintance & keeping the ears well clipped even if there in show trim.

[Rappie]

Remember that I haven't seen the dog etc etc etc.

Dru - from what you are saying, I don't think that a lateral ear resection is the answer for this dog right now.

If the vet has described the infection (and I assume that by this stage there has been a culture and sensitivity done) as an aggressive bacteria then I assume that it involves Pseudomonas aeruginosa. If I ever see this in a swab I warn owners from the outset that we could be in for a long, frustrating, expensive and potentially life long ride. It is not an impossible situation to solve, but the bacteria is an obligate pathogen and typically resistant to most things that you throw at it. IMHO one of the most important factors in treating chronic ear infections is owner commitment, and that is often hard to come by.

I am going to quote from a standard surgery text now, for the sake of some objective information:

"Lateral ear canal resection increases drainage and improves ventilation of the ear canal. It also facilitates placement of topical agents into the horizontal canal. Lateral ear canal resection is indicated in patients with minimal hyperplasia (thickening of skin)....It should not be performed in animals with obstruction or stenosis (narrowing) of the horizontal canal or concurrent otitis media, or in patients with sever epithelial hyperplasia. ...Owner counselling is extremely important before performing a lateral ear canal resection. Most studies have shown that owners satisfaction is low when lateral ear canal resection is performed for chronic otitis externa in dogs. Note: Make sure the owner understands that lateral ear canal resection is not a cure and that medical management probably will be neccessary for the remainder of the animals life. "

(Small Animal SurgeryFossum et al. 2nd ed, 2002)

In any chronic, nasty ear infection there is usually some otitis media (middle ear infection) even if mild enough not to cause additional clinical signs. Most "chronic ears" that I examine don't have an intact tympanic membrane (ear drum) and probably haven't for a while. A lateral ear resection wont cure anything, it will just make it easier to physically treat the ear and help with drainage - it doesn't eliminate the need for owner involvement and IMHO from what you have said the owners effort hasn't been tried to it's full extent. If there is middle ear involvement then the recommended is a total ear canal ablation with a bulla ostectomy - that is seriously major specialist surgery. very painful and not without significant risk.

It sounds as though this dog has more problems than just it's ear and I would treat the whole dog aggressively before I suggested surgery. It is going to take dedication.

Things I would do:

- religious flea control

- very strict elimination diet and I wouldn't suggest BARF at this point (due to potential for allergies to beef, lamb and chicken being most common) --> it needs to be entirely novel protein and carbohydrates, not just fresh and organic but something the dog has never eaten before. It would need to last at LEAST 6-8 weeks. It could be commercial but in this situations it often works better to have home cooked.

- thorough dermatology work up --> skin scrapes, ear swab and then culture and sensitivity, sticky tape preps for yeast, Woods Lamp and fungal culture if needed.

- if the dog has (diagnosed) yeasty skin, then it needs to be treated - if that means Malaseb, then it needs to be washed every week, if oral antifungals then until the skin is improved.

- if the ear is that bad then it probably needs oral antibiotics as well, because a topical preparation wont do much damage to a bone infection.

- topical meds chosen based on C & S.

- this is one of those situations that steroids are often needed, if to do nothing else but open the ear canal so cleaning actually gets where it is needed.

- do everything possible to support the skin --> omega oils, zinc, antihistamines to reduce itching and histamine release.

- sedate the dog, flush, clean, clip and pluck the ears if neccessary --> they NEED to be clear.

- make sure the owner knows that sometimes the best outcome is that we can MANAGE a chronic ear without detriment to the dog.

- I insist on the seeing the dog back at least every 2 weeks to repeat swabs and keep an eye on bacterial numbers (and I can tell if owners haven't been keeping up their end of the bargain.

- If this gets no where --> consider a referral to dermatologist

It's not easy, it's not cheap, but I hope it's clear that an ear resection is going to make it easier to do all the other management things that need to be done, but I suspect that there is at least one if not more underlying causes in this dog. The surgery basically relocates the opening of the ear to "sideways" not "upways" - all the other factors remain the same.

Please feel free to PM me if you like.

[Clyde]

Is the problem bodily worse in winter??Does he get wet alot & not dried off??

Also does the dog have bad feet??Often with bad ears the dogs scratch the ears & transmit the infection to the feet,the feet arent treated so then it scratches the ear & the infection starts again.Also if the dog isnt groomed regularly they end up with hairy feet that pick up all sorts of grub of f the ground

Is it a yeasty type of infection??

Personally i do not believe BARF is the fixer of all things but depending on the current diet & treats can help because as we now allergies can be a result of many things.

Has the dog always had allergies??or has it only popped up since a set time??

Some of the flea/heartworm stuff can overload a sensitive dog.

There are so many things but with ears its maintance & keeping the ears well clipped even if there in show trim.

Hi there, His feet aren't too bad, he does chew them but he hasn't been as much lately. I think I'll give her my old one speed clippers so she can keep his ears short all the time.

He has always had allergies, a constant battle.

[Clyde]

Rappie, you're a gem!

The bacteria you suggested is exactly what he has! Guinness has had 'problems' since he was twelve weeks old, he is now about 6yrs. They have tried an elimination diet (years ago though) and nothing showed up.

religious flea control Yes

very strict elimination diet This was done some years ago and nothing showed up :D

thorough dermatology work up I'm assuming this was done fairly recently as he has made several visits to the vet recently for his ear. Will check though.

if the dog has (diagnosed) yeasty skin, then it needs to be treated - if that means Malaseb Not currently being done but easily fixed.

He is on antibiotics atm for his ear..... will take you up on the PM offer to ask about ongoing ear care. Thanks for taking the time.

[Clyde]

Double post. :smurf:

Edited September 10, 2007 by Dru

[Rappie]

No worries Dru

Re: elimination diets, if a very strict diet made no difference then a true food allergy is unlikely. If that is the case, then a BARF diet may well help - assuming that the dog is not sensitive to any of the ingredients making it up. However the absence of preservatives and the control over the content means that it is a known quantity. Sometimes having a low allergen diet for an extended period of time can lead to some reduction in symptoms even if is not a food allergy, just because the body has one less thing to react to - there is a concept of "thresholds" with allergies, and once that threshold is crossed the effects can snowball (unfortunately sometimes it hard to control the original problem).

Put blunty, "rod ears" suck.

The point of doing all the extra things is to make sure that anything that is easy / able to be treated or eliminated ...is.

It narrows down the list of possibilities and lets us take care of the secondary problems.

Sometimes at the end of it all, as much as we try, there just isn't the structure of a "normal" (or even sort of normal) ear to aim for because the ear canal has calcified etc etc.

I am feeling a bit stuffed ATM, but PM me whenever and I will get back to you when I can (I read my PM's almost daily, even if I don't get around to replyinh).

[springdog]

Dru dont know if this will help,

As the owner of 4 Springers and having dealt with ear infections in 1 boy as my vet described a zoo in his ears, (yeast, bacteria and rods), he also has sensetive skin and his feet react in winter when they get wet from going outside. I have changed his diet and have found he seems to have been problem free, so far, he is on a wheat free dry food and has very little meat. His dry food is rice based and he has premium mince .

Springdog