Any Horse Trainers On Dol?

[Choppa Chop]

Tony has given some sound advice Lilli

The only thing I would suggest different is to not use your lunge rope for this . A 12 foot training lead is ideal and indeed , is what it was designed for . It gives you enough lead to send your horse out onto a small circle and still short enough to give a quick reprimand should it be needed .

You indeed want the horse to realise that it's much easier to do the right thing , hence the reward is standing still . You may find he's content to go around in circles for 30 minutes and it would appear you are getting nowhere , take heart , he will get it ! And you'll be surprised how quickly alot of horses 'get' it.

I use the send out on a circle and I also use the 'send them backwards' approach . At the sign of any unwanted behaviour the horse is driven backwards , fast . Then stand and allow the horse to stand and let things sink in a bit . Walk off again , at the first ( it is imperative to have your timing as good as you can get it - instant release of pressure the moment the horse 'softens' , instant 'send off' -be it round or backwards- the instant the horse misbehaves ) sign of the 'shirts' send him off again .

I dont pertain to any 'one' method with the horses . I have studied Parelli and Monty , as well Australian Natural , I take from each what works best and add a dash of me . The natural approach is really just common horse sense wrapped up in a marketing box

[Choppa Chop]

I had a striker and was advised to carry a crop and smack him across the front legs when he did it. He was an ex-racehorse.

Thanks Benji's Mum - I don't really want to get into a physical confrontation with this horse, what starts off as disrespectful play could turn very nasty if he moved to anger or fear. He is the type of horse that will do things for you if he trusts you and you ask firmly but nicely. I use a crop as an aid when riding, but would be reluctant to use it when he rears, as when he throws himself up or to the side, he is too strong for me to counter and correct by swinging him around or pulling the lead. If I was to smack his front legs he would just pull away. And if 1 tonne pulls away, you go with it or you let go.

One farrier that saw him (sadly we have gone through a few ) wacked him under the belly when he moved, and the horse just got angrier and more afraid - and tossed the farrier like a peanut.

You are so very correct there Lilli

You DON'T want to argue with him . You just don't argue with a tonn odd of animal , you're always bound to lose . Hence you try to show them the 'easy way' of doing things

[Choppa Chop]

Where abouts in Victoria are you ? I may know someone who is able to come and help you out a bit

[Benji's Mum]

That's ok, that's why I mentioned he was an ex-racehorse.

He had had a lot of training and knew better and took the hint straight away. He got me a beauty on the leg once and I cried buckets.

[BJean]

Lilli,I take it from your post that this is the first time you have encountered Rearing with this Horse?

Lilli,as you know the factors that need to be taken into account are your state at the time,the onsett of Spring,the behavior of nearby Horses,the late Gelding of this Horse and the way he see's you.

Before I go any further Lilli,as this was a first it is not entrenched behaviour.I would if you feel a little wary, get somebody else to take this Horse and recreate the situation that you had and see if he repeats the behaviour.

Lilli as you know Horses are like Dogs in one respect and will repeat a behaviour if there is a payoff in it for them.alot of Horse Training is making it easy for the Horse to do what we require and hard for him to do what we do not want!!!We show them a Path of least resistance.

lilli,it is not helpful to chastise yourself about how you may have contributed to this matter.Awareness that there may be a problem is the first step in seeking a solution.This first step you have taken, so do not beat yourself up over it.No matter what we are doing life is learning.

lilli,there are a few options here.Firstly as you already know many issues with Dogs go back to Leadership.Horses also are subject to Leadership issues.Lilli I would check out Monty Roberts and his Join-Up Process as one good starting point.

Lilli, one option which another poster has already touched upon is this.I would equip yourself with a good Halter and a Lead long enough to lunge the Horse with.Recreate the scene you had or enlist the help of other People.Have the other People assemble all leading a Horse each.Get these People to group together.Next lead your Horse up and down past this group of Horses.Take note of your Horse"s body language and behaviour.If he starts to act up,immeditately send him out on the lunge right near the group of Horses.Keep him Lunging then stop and proceed in leading him up and back past the group again.Any unwanted behaviour and straight away lunge again!!!!You must initiate the Lunging immeditately so he connects it with his behaviour.When he will walk past calmly let him stand as a reward.We are showing him that his behaviour of acting up makes life hard for him and his behaviour of being calm makes life easy for him.

Initially in the early stages have the group of Horses being held all pretty well stationary till he gets the idea.As he gets the idea you can then have the Group move around a bit,whilst still repeating the Lesson.The same way one would introduce a distraction into a Dogs training to strengthen behaviour we want.

Lilli, is it helps PM me a postal addy and I will send you one of those Halters mentioned in this Thread, as they are one of many items I make.The Halter will be on the House as I will be glad to help see the situation rectified. Tony

Thankyou Tony for your considerate reply

He is rearing and carrying on when we go past the left corner where there is one filly and a mare -

I don't lead him past the right corner (the only other pathway) as that corner has one stallion and a very vocal colt.

Last year at Spring the extent of his Spring jollies was to prance about when approaching this corner, but this year he has added rearing.

Once in the yard or arena he does not act up when being lead past other horses.

He is a difficult horse to get help with as his upbringing was unusual - not many trainers would help me with him (many refused based on his size and age)- I found one eventually though

I am the only handler he has known, and compared to other horses I've owned and my snobby mare - he seems very bonded(?)

When he hears my car approach he calls out; if I call out and he hears he will respond and run to the gate waiting for me. If I get distracted and take my time getting to him, he will walk through the fence and meet me at the hayshed. If he gets himself into trouble he will wait for me to fix it.

Until I got him he just lived in the herd of horses he was born with at the CSL.

I'm not sure if there is anyone around (until Thursday) who will be able to recreate (and possibly contend with) the situation for me.

I will lunge him before I take him out the paddock today, and will lead him using the bridle.

Hopefully it will abate soon.

(I thought the 'damage' phase was over with last year. We took down a stable, nearly pulled down the wash bay and broke the barriers in the tie up area )

I will also measure his head and send you his sizing THANKYOU

I remember that his browband measurement from when I had a bridle made for him was 49cm - will send you PM

THANKYOU

L:-)

Edited September 2, 2007 by lilli

[Tonymc]

Lilli,that explains a bit,this Horse being one of the CSL mob.Lilli,when you get time I would follow up the Join-Up Process as I think it will help in many ways.Thank you Lilli for the Thank you, but being able to help somebody even in a small way is a privellege for me and enriches my Life. Tony

[Tonymc]

Jeff,my friend thank you for your very kind mention. Tony

[Benji's Mum]

Are you feeding him anything extra that you could cut back, or perhaps lock him up out of the good spring grass occasionally.

There was some good advice on the horse forum Aphra posted, including where they said to get teeth checked.

I remember one of my horses had teeth so sharp that the person who checked them ended up with a bleeding finger.

[RealityBites]

I have two stallions, and every year numerous youngsters and THE best thing that has worked for me when they start playing silly buggers is a smack across the forelegs with a whip when they are being stupid. I don't mean a massive thump, it's to take their mind of what they are doing, or about to do, and they usually look down, and it gives attention straight back to you. From that point I would ask them to back up a few steps and then continue walking forwrad. If they start surging, or prancing, another tap on the legs.

I would be concerned about asking a horse to lunge that is already out of control. Making the legs move faster normally gets them more agitated, and if he is already rearing and pulling away, making him go faster is only going to exaggerate that. It also encourages them to run circles around you and when you already have a horse surging forwards, there is nothing more annoying than having one constantly running rings around you. I would try a tap on the legs, a bit in the mouth (If you use a rearing bit make sure the lead clip is attatched to the halter and the bit) and ask for him to back up, or stand still for a few seconds before moving forward. My boys are also a heavy breed and I can't afford to put up with any crap from them!

[Benji's Mum]

Lock him in the roundyard for a week with a piece of straw for dinner, get his teeth checked and start again.

[Benji's Mum]

Obviously I'm joking..but you need to get the beans out of him.

[Cheyenne_Fury]

Sounds like your boy definately has a case of the spring stupids (I love that phrase ). Like your horse, my boy wasn't gelded until late and worse than having no handling until he was 5, he had very inconsistent handling and was beaten when he didn't do the thing. He is an arab and an extremely sensitive one at that, so I kind of know where you are coming from.

I would suggest a knotted rope halter (I've seen some half decent ones on ebay that can be custom made to ensure the correct sizing) for handling him at the moment, and as Tony mentioned, Join Up is a fantastic thing

Good luck.

[griff]

I highly recommend a nose chain...

you use it as you do a check chain on dogs..

Works wonders kept all my Stallions and show horse on the Ground !!!

can go over the nose, under the chin..

when he starts to want to jig around give him a quick check.

Edited September 2, 2007 by griff

[greychicken]

I highly recommend a nose chain...

you use it as you do a check chain on dogs..

Works wonders kept all my Stallions and show horse on the Ground !!!

can go over the nose, under the chin..

when he starts to want to jig around give him a quick check.

I agree, nose chains saved me more than a few times when I was breaking in race horses in Japan.

The Japanese don't have as much horse experience - at least not the farms that I worked on - and I was dealing with unbroken colts getting fed waaay too many oats! I am only 5ft4 and 50odd kg, there was no way I could fight it out with these horses and used a nose chain to very good end. Just takes the spring out of the step with a gentle pull and doesn't pressure them when not needed.

Good luck with it, and please please please post pics of your boy, he sounds divine!

[KOE]

You really need a rope halter, and dont lead him on a loose lead, I dont really believe in a whip but they do work, my son teaches all his horses with a whip, which I was not too impressed with but you only have to stand in the middle of anywhere slap your thigh a couple of times and all horses face up immeadiatly.

When you lead him hold the halter up under the chin and that way you stay away from those hooves.

or you could use a side pull, that will bring him back to earth in a hurry

best of luck

Edited September 2, 2007 by isaviz

[BJean]

Thankyou all for your helpful advice

Only had time for a quick lead about today -

Trifecta, I led him on the bridle with a tad more success

I always keep real close to his shoulder so when he rears up I am out of the way of his forelegs.

Ultimately we make our way slowly with me moving him laterally - applying pressure to his shoulder and keeping his front and hindquarters away from me.

I'm going to go back to basics - before work tomorrow we are going to do some round yard work.

I would like to work on our relationship - get it back to 50/50 - before I have to resort to a nose chain -

I don't really want to use a more severe method of leading if I haven't needed to in the past.

Choppa Chop - I am in Lysterfield, VIC.

Tonymc - I will also follow up with the Join Up Process that you recommended - will wait for the trainer to return on thursday to oversee that. As of 6am tomorrow we are back in work!

greychicken - if I'm not in hospital tomorrow morning I will take some pics. he is very hairy and shedding his winter coat, so looks like a mammoth.

Benji'sMum my OH has been giving him lucern for the past week

I usually keep him on rye/clover or grass hay, so yes i think he also has had some extra beans

RealityBites it may sound silly :cool: but I am concerned about rapping his forlegs with a whip (while leading him out the paddock) when he rears, as we only have a four metre wide path to walk along, wooden fences along one side with horses, and the property boundary with barbed wire on the other. When I lead him there is only about half a metre either side of us, and when he throws himself around he is not afraid to crash into things. He is also not that fearful of a whip and if I smacked him with the whip while somehow still hanging on to him, he could strike out at me, and there is not much room for me to go. Also his wither is just above my head, so there is a big leg to avoid if it strikes out. He is kind of like an elephant - they're much better when they are not angry or afraid, else they will take down everything in their path.

Edited September 2, 2007 by lilli

[sidoney]

You have some good advice here, if conflicting.

Simply, he needs some groundwork to give you more control and respect. Yielding to you, respecting your space, watching for your moves and moving with you. Moving front, rear, whole body in the direction you want, at a small signal or body shift from you.

As was said, make it easy for him to do what you want, and make it uncomfortable for him to do what you don't want.

I'd be drawing the line at what I accept in hand. Prancing is not on, unless loose in the paddock (or unless I'm handling something like a halter Arabian). Keep an eye on his body language and stop the sillies before they turn into rearing.

You still need to do some work with him on his front legs - he should accept having his legs worked on. Don't accept the stamping and pulling away. Reward him for standing nicely, make him work if he plays up. He needs to understand control and respect in all areas, not just some. It's across the board.

I use a mix of the so called natural horse training, and also clicker training (although my click is a mouth noise, a reverse "t", as it's too difficult to do the clicker as well as all the rest). So for the front feet, I'd click and reward holding the feet up, and extend the time, and I'd back the horse up or lunge in small circles if he pulls the feet away. IMO backing up is more severe. Obviously you need to teach the horse a good backup on the ground first, and also the small circle work first, before using it as something to get the horse to do instead of something you don't want it to do.

The worst horse I had for rearing was a colt I showed in hand for some people who were not great horse handlers. He was an intelligent and quite dominant horse. (Took after his sire.) He used to rear with them and pull away and get what he wanted. He had amazing balance and could stay up, and high, for ages. Unfortunately because his handling was not consistent, it was hard to get him out of his ways. However probably the most effective way to get him down if he was up for a while was to slip around beside him while he was up and give him a wallop on the butt, then immediately drive him forward into the small circle lunging. Backing up sometimes sent him up again if he'd just been up. He decreased a lot of his cheeky ways with me but knew the difference between handlers.

I think you probably need to use a groundwork programme with this horse to establish the kind of relationship you have with him, rather than working piecemeal, a bit here, a bit there.

Edit: I just read about the 4m wide path, missed that, the suggestion to set the situation up is the one that's going to help you here. Work with him in a safe area, with gradually increasing levels of distraction/conditions that lead him to prance and rear.

Edited September 2, 2007 by sidoney

[Benji's Mum]

Sounds like he's full of jumping beans like a hypo kid full of sugar.

It's not his fault, go easy on him and don't bother getting into any battles until he calms down.

Try and limit the grass when you can and NO extras. Plenty of water and a salt lick instead. Be careful.

ETA PS Your Ferrari is running a bit rich and might need a new set of brakes.

Edited September 2, 2007 by Benji's Mum

[sidoney]

IMO a horse needs to be controllable no matter how fit and/or full of rich feed it is. (Or how scary things nearby are - this could save a life one day.)

This is where a good structured foundation groundwork training programme is invaluable. The horse learns self control and trust and respect for the handler. This relationship extends to work under the saddle.

[BJean]

IMO a horse needs to be controllable no matter how fit and/or full of rich feed it is. (Or how scary things nearby are - this could save a life one day.)

This is where a good structured foundation groundwork training programme is invaluable. The horse learns self control and trust and respect for the handler. This relationship extends to work under the saddle.

Thanks Sidoney

I think perhaps I had become lazy over winter with him and probably let him get away with things that months ago I would not have.

So its back to the start - my trainer returns on thursday so hopefully over time the thorse and I will get succeed at establishing self control, trust and respect - in any circumstance.

Lunged him before taking him out the paddock this morning and then led him out on a bridle - no rearing or striking out with his near foreleg - I was very relieved. I am now very cautious of leading him now - I think we both have to build up trust again ;) .

Regarding his feet

You still need to do some work with him on his front legs - he should accept having his legs worked on. Don't accept the stamping and pulling away. Reward him for standing nicely, make him work if he plays up. He needs to understand control and respect in all areas, not just some. It's across the board.

I can pick up his front legs - he lifts his front legs up on command - but back legs, not so good. I can pick them up but for only a minute or so -

I will try making him work when he wont lift his back legs...

Any suggestions to stop him striking out at the farrier?

I can lift his front leg, move it forward and back, tap the hoof with a hammer etc, hold it up for 5, 10 mins etc - but after about two minutes with the farrier he won't lift his front legs any more and strikes out instead. He only has to get his front feet trimmed - anything I can do to stop him carrying on like a pork chop with the farrier?