Any Horse Trainers On Dol?

[BJean]

The resident horse guru is away (until Thursday)

and I was hoping for some advice in leading a horse that rears.

Anyone about that I could present my scenario to??

thankyou

ETA: scenario:

On Friday while leading my 8yo Percheron gelding (gelded late at 6) from his paddock, he started to prance about (that's okay its Spring, new grass etc)

but then suddeny it progressed to rearing in front of me, a bit of bucking and another rear with shadow boxing.

Now being a Percheron he is usually a gentle giant (17hh, weighs just over a tonne)

but this rearing and cavorting around while being lead past other horses is not on and because he is so powerful it is very dangerous.

He is doing this in play/excitement, but it is disrespectful for him to be doing this while I lead him. Staring up at my horses feet the size of dinner plates in the air, while he rears in front of me is not something I want to see again, nor do I want to have to drop the lead and run to get out of the way (yesterdays fun).

Once I get him to the yard he is fine and while not on lead he has his usual unflappable and excellent ground manners. (I can put this horse's rugs on him in the middle of his paddock with a gale force wind blowing.)

When in good spirits he will prance (like when he sees feed arrive in the morning) or if walking past a mare in Spring, but this rearing behaviour has taken me by surprise and I was wondering if anyone can give me some advice to deal with rearing while being led.

I started this horse two years ago (unbroken) and have never been on the end of such behaviour before - even when he was being taught to lift his feet. He would kick out or stamp his foot down but never towards me.

His worst behaviour and only vice, is striking out with his front feet when he has had enough of the farrier picking them up. However this horse never had his feet handled or any farrier exposure until he was 6 years old. He is now okay with his front feet being trimmed, back feet - depends on the day

Any suggestions on what I can do to stop him rearing while being lead past other horses?

Edited September 2, 2007 by lilli

[Jeff Jones]

I think Erny and Tonymc have a fair bit of knowledge with training horses.

[Benji's Mum]

More inclined to see a vet to xray for spinal fractures. I know of 3 cases, one wither, 2 poll(?top of head behind ears).

[Erny]

Thanks Jeff but although I've had my fair share of 'problems' that I had to work through with a young colt (later gelded) I'm not sure that the things I did would be what a professional horse trainer would do. All I can say is that it worked for me.

I've had little experience with horses that rear whilst being led. The colt I had tried this on as a 1 year old but it wasn't full-on. To maintain control (yes - the rearing bothered me) I used one of those 'stallion' in-hand bits. It gave me some extra control. I don't know if that's what actually fixed it or whether it was simply that it gave me the control to prevent it and my boy grew through that 'stage'.

This same horse (which by this stage was gelded) did give me rearing probs in his early days after being 'broken in' for riding. Took some courage (his rears were very high) but eventually I managed to find the balance required to reach back with my arm (whilst he was in full rear) and give him a whack with the dressage whip. That's all it needed. The reason for his rearing was because he knew it had worked for him before. He was one of those horses that once you showed your confidence when pitted against his antics, he would quit (for good) and got on with things very nicely.

Before I managed the above there was another time (long story so won't go into details) where he would get to a certain point on the road and decide not to go on. Using my legs too much only pushed him into a rear. Using my legs mildly would cause him to back up. Because the rearing really bothered me, I chose not to push him knowing he'd win (and I'd probably get hurt) so I turned him around and backed him in the direction I wanted to go. I'd turn him forward after a while but if he didn't more forward immediately, I turned him and continued to back. We did this for 4 kilometres.

He never balked on me again after that and ended up very sensitive to backing - a mere slight shift of my body weight in the saddle was all it took.

But this is all different - it's me in the saddle, not on the ground.

I don't know the OP's horse and whether he is rearing AND striking (VERY dangerous) but if the OP would think it safe to do so I'd probably work the horse in a round yard on a lunge-line with a lunge whip. Warm him up on the lunge and at any time he went to rear I'd move him on, encouraging the forward movement with the lunge-whip. But similar as to dogs - very difficult to know what to advise without knowing/seeing the animal. Priority is safety of the human. Perhaps some professional help from a horse-person?

[Choppa Chop]

PM if you like . But I will say this , rearing is the one thing I don't tolerate very well . It is often just an 'escape' route for a horse . ie ; Dont want to = I'll just go up instead . Rearing whilst being led suggests a respect issue . It can mean other things as well ; excitable surrounds etc .

Would need to know more about horse and situation

[Cosmolo]

I have dealt with a rearing horse or two- one was particularly bad after being confined for 3 months after an injury- and he was a silly thoroughbred to start with! Did a couple of things- stallion bit to manage the behaviour short term and 'natural horsemanship'/ negative reinforcement with a knotted professionally made rope halter (not a $15 from horseland) long rope line (not flappy lunge lead) a 'carrot stick' AND professional assistance as it was a very dangerous situation to begin with.

The carrot stick was invaluable- allowed me to keep some distance between me and the horses shoulder and apply relevant pressures easily. Taught the horse how to give to pressure in every respect and with forehand and hindquarter movements, sideways, forwards, backwards- all on the ground to start but then comes in very handy under saddle.

[Benji's Mum]

oops 2 withers, one poll.

One went under a truck (poll), another flipped while grooming (wither) and I think the third (wither) was hurt when caught from wild at Araluen. Wait for the expert to come back.

[BJean]

oops forgot to add scenario:

On Friday while leading my 8yo Percheron gelding (gelded late at 6) from his paddock, he started to prance about (that's okay its Spring, new grass etc)

but then suddeny it progressed to rearing in front of me, a bit of bucking and another rear with shadow boxing.

Now being a Percheron he is usually a gentle giant (17hh, weighs just over a tonne)

but this rearing and cavorting around while being lead past other horses is not on and because he is so powerful it is very dangerous.

He is doing this in play/excitement, but it is disrespectful for him to be doing this while I lead him. Staring up at my horses feet the size of dinner plates in the air, while he rears in front of me is not something I want to see again, nor do I want to have to drop the lead and run to get out of the way (yesterdays fun).

Once I get him to the yard he is fine and while not on lead he has his usual unflappable and excellent ground manners. (I can put this horse's rugs on him in the middle of his paddock with a gale force wind blowing, or tack him up at night with a torch light no probs.)

When in good spirits he will prance (like when he sees feed arrive in the morning) or if walking past a mare in Spring, but this rearing behaviour has taken me by surprise and I was wondering if anyone can give me some advice to deal with rearing while being led.

I started this horse two years ago (unbroken) and have never been on the end of such behaviour before - even when he was being taught to lift his feet. He would kick out or stamp his foot down but never towards me.

His worst behaviour and only vice, is striking out with his front feet when he has had enough of the farrier picking them up. However this horse never had his feet handled or any farrier exposure until he was 6 years old. He is now okay with his front feet being trimmed, back feet - depends on the day

Any suggestions on what I can do to stop him rearing while being lead past other horses?

NB: should aslo add that this horse has never reared when under saddle - when started his worst would be to shake his head around and do a bunny hop 20cm from the ground in frustration. Until friday, I didn't think this horse could get that hgh off the ground - he can be pig headed, but that is because nothing was ever asked of him unilt he was 6 yo.

Edited September 2, 2007 by lilli

[Choppa Chop]

Well it is spring after all

But you're right , really no excuse for such a display , not when complete with 'shadow boxing' .

Is it only the once now he's done it ?

Do you use a rope halter ? If you dont , invest in one asap . And as Cosmolo says , you dont want a flimsy , flap around lunge rope . You need something 'soft' but still managable .

Is he aware of 'your space' 'his space' . Is it well enforced ?

Do you/have you used any natural methods during his training ?

Sorry for more questions but need to know a bit more

[The Spotted Devil]

We had 5 Shires, lilli, so know where you are coming from in terms of big hooves and strength when they decide to 'play'

I don't want to offer any advice as I'm not experienced enough....but can recommend this establishment if you are looking for outside help.

[BJean]

I don't know the OP's horse and whether he is rearing AND striking (VERY dangerous) but if the OP would think it safe to do so I'd probably work the horse in a round yard on a lunge-line with a lunge whip. Warm him up on the lunge and at any time he went to rear I'd move him on, encouraging the forward movement with the lunge-whip. But similar as to dogs - very difficult to know what to advise without knowing/seeing the animal. Priority is safety of the human. Perhaps some professional help from a horse-person?

Thanks Erny - he is okay in the arena and didn't rear - the problem is I have to lead him out the paddock to get to the arena.

I think it is a respect issue, and this is best worked on in the arena/round yard

but the problem is I have to lead him from his paddock to get to the yard . . .

Perhaps I should get a stronger halter than the nylon one I have?

Or maybe I will just wait until thursday (but it peeves me that he has got this over me..)

I hope i don't have to get any special lead halter/chain as all his head gear has to be made for him.

What a pest *wonders about all the things I did to contribute to this situation*

[Aphra]

It sounds to me as if your pony has an advanced case of the Spring stupids. Lots of protein in the grass, nice sunshine, too much energy and his brain has gone phhhwwt. You'll probably find that when the Spring grass is over he'll get sensible again.

My suggestion, for what it's worth, is pretend he's a young horse all over again and teach him to lead as if he was a young 'un. Get his attention back on you, maybe start with lunging him in the paddock a bit so that he can get some ya yas out, and then work on his ground manners. Even the nicest horses can do with a refresher course every so often.

I work with Red a bit like he was a dog I was teaching to lead; change direction, stop, back up, so that I've got his attention. Once he's paying attention and not carrying on, you can do more amusing things on the ground. I play with Red, we creeeep forward really slowly and he creeeps with me. Then I walk really fast so that he walks really fast with me ... sort of a game of follow the leader.

But do wear gloves and your helmet while you're working with him, better to be safe than sorry.

Here's some advice from one of my favourite horse people, Jessica Jahiel.

http://www.horse-sense.org/archives/horsrear.phtml

[BJean]

Well it is spring after all

But you're right , really no excuse for such a display , not when complete with 'shadow boxing' .

Is it only the once now he's done it ?

Do you use a rope halter ? If you dont , invest in one asap . And as Cosmolo says , you dont want a flimsy , flap around lunge rope . You need something 'soft' but still managable .

Is he aware of 'your space' 'his space' . Is it well enforced ?

Do you/have you used any natural methods during his training ?

Sorry for more questions but need to know a bit more

Thanks Choppa Chop,

Well he has done it twice now, (not today as I won't be dealing with stinky until later this afternoon).

Perhaps because I allow prancing while on lead - it escalated to rearing?

A 'friendly bump' from this horse would knock me flying, but despite his size what makes him so easy to handle is his gentle and willing nature.

He never barges past, even to get into his stall when I have placed his food down - when i am filling up his water he peers from behind my shoulder, if I say back be backs up, and in an enclosed space he will walk backwards rather than have his rear face me. He lowers his head so I can put on his halter, and when I dismount he follows me around.

During his training the only amount of force that was used was to tie up his front foreleg to teach him he couldn't stamp it down when he wanted to.

I have a leather halter that was made to fit him, the lunge rope is a strong nylone one - but perhaps it should be longer?

Perhaps today I will lead him out with his bridle on, and maybe with the lunge rope to give me space if I need it. Or would that be a disaster?

When working in lunge and when started in round yard, at the end of the lesson the horse would walk into the cirlce and come toward me. If he is not tied up in a stall he will walk and break through the barrier to follow me - even if someone else is riding him in the arena he looks out for my cues - if I call out 'whoa' he stops dead - much to my amusement but not my sisters

Edited September 2, 2007 by lilli

[The Spotted Devil]

It sounds to me as if your pony has an advanced case of the Spring stupids.

Brilliant

[BJean]

I have dealt with a rearing horse or two- one was particularly bad after being confined for 3 months after an injury- and he was a silly thoroughbred to start with! Did a couple of things- stallion bit to manage the behaviour short term and 'natural horsemanship'/ negative reinforcement with a knotted professionally made rope halter (not a $15 from horseland) long rope line (not flappy lunge lead) a 'carrot stick' AND professional assistance as it was a very dangerous situation to begin with.

The carrot stick was invaluable- allowed me to keep some distance between me and the horses shoulder and apply relevant pressures easily. Taught the horse how to give to pressure in every respect and with forehand and hindquarter movements, sideways, forwards, backwards- all on the ground to start but then comes in very handy under saddle.

Thanks Cosmolo - I think I will look at getting a different halter made for him -

fortunately all Horseland's stuff is too small

I think the lady who made his bridle and rugs can make halters, will find out...

[BJean]

It sounds to me as if your pony has an advanced case of the Spring stupids. Lots of protein in the grass, nice sunshine, too much energy and his brain has gone phhhwwt. You'll probably find that when the Spring grass is over he'll get sensible again.

My suggestion, for what it's worth, is pretend he's a young horse all over again and teach him to lead as if he was a young 'un. Get his attention back on you, maybe start with lunging him in the paddock a bit so that he can get some ya yas out, and then work on his ground manners. Even the nicest horses can do with a refresher course every so often.

Thanks Aphra

yes i think it is a severe case of the Spring stupids

last year he just pranced about, but this year has got even silllier.

Will try lunging him before I take him out the paddock, see if that settles him a little

thankyou

L:-)

[Benji's Mum]

I had a striker and was advised to carry a crop and smack him across the front legs when he did it. He was an ex-racehorse.

[Tonymc]

Lilli,I take it from your post that this is the first time you have encountered Rearing with this Horse?

Lilli,as you know the factors that need to be taken into account are your state at the time,the onsett of Spring,the behavior of nearby Horses,the late Gelding of this Horse and the way he see's you.

Before I go any further Lilli,as this was a first it is not entrenched behaviour.I would if you feel a little wary, get somebody else to take this Horse and recreate the situation that you had and see if he repeats the behaviour.

Lilli as you know Horses are like Dogs in one respect and will repeat a behaviour if there is a payoff in it for them.alot of Horse Training is making it easy for the Horse to do what we require and hard for him to do what we do not want!!!We show them a Path of least resistance.

lilli,it is not helpful to chastise yourself about how you may have contributed to this matter.Awareness that there may be a problem is the first step in seeking a solution.This first step you have taken, so do not beat yourself up over it.No matter what we are doing life is learning.

lilli,there are a few options here.Firstly as you already know many issues with Dogs go back to Leadership.Horses also are subject to Leadership issues.Lilli I would check out Monty Roberts and his Join-Up Process as one good starting point.

Lilli, one option which another poster has already touched upon is this.I would equip yourself with a good Halter and a Lead long enough to lunge the Horse with.Recreate the scene you had or enlist the help of other People.Have the other People assemble all leading a Horse each.Get these People to group together.Next lead your Horse up and down past this group of Horses.Take note of your Horse"s body language and behaviour.If he starts to act up,immeditately send him out on the lunge right near the group of Horses.Keep him Lunging then stop and proceed in leading him up and back past the group again.Any unwanted behaviour and straight away lunge again!!!!You must initiate the Lunging immeditately so he connects it with his behaviour.When he will walk past calmly let him stand as a reward.We are showing him that his behaviour of acting up makes life hard for him and his behaviour of being calm makes life easy for him.

Initially in the early stages have the group of Horses being held all pretty well stationary till he gets the idea.As he gets the idea you can then have the Group move around a bit,whilst still repeating the Lesson.The same way one would introduce a distraction into a Dogs training to strengthen behaviour we want.

Lilli, is it helps PM me a postal addy and I will send you one of those Halters mentioned in this Thread, as they are one of many items I make.The Halter will be on the House as I will be glad to help see the situation rectified. Tony

[trifecta]

Lilli, have you tried leading him in a bridle? Carry a dressage whip in your left hand & just use it to tap him up where he stops, to maintain forward movement. If he then tries to rush in front of you, just carry the whip in your left hand about a third of the way down, but across the front of your body, a gentle tap on the nose with the handle if he tries to move past your shoulder should bring him back into line.

If this is not effective I would graduate to using a stallion chain on a well fitting head collar. Feed the clip end through the near side ring & loop the chain once around the nose band before clipping to the off side ring. This prevents the chain from slipping too far down the nose, it is most effective on the bridge of the nose. It is effective & you can use the dressage whip has described above.

For an experienced handler, an anti-rearing bit would be the way to go. However this bit must be fitted & used correctly, otherwise damage to the jaw can be sustained.

[BJean]

I had a striker and was advised to carry a crop and smack him across the front legs when he did it. He was an ex-racehorse.

Thanks Benji's Mum - I don't really want to get into a physical confrontation with this horse, what starts off as disrespectful play could turn very nasty if he moved to anger or fear. He is the type of horse that will do things for you if he trusts you and you ask firmly but nicely. I use a crop as an aid when riding, but would be reluctant to use it when he rears, as when he throws himself up or to the side, he is too strong for me to counter and correct by swinging him around or pulling the lead. If I was to smack his front legs he would just pull away. And if 1 tonne pulls away, you go with it or you let go.

One farrier that saw him (sadly we have gone through a few ) wacked him under the belly when he moved, and the horse just got angrier and more afraid - and tossed the farrier through the air like a peanut.

Edited September 2, 2007 by lilli