Are We Catching Up To Dog"s?

[Tonymc]

Are we catching up to Dogs?

This is only one of my perspectives on Dog"s and Training.We have all in our time so far, seen different Trainers,Approaches,Methodologies,Books,DVDs and Schools of thought emerge.

I am in many ways a believer of the saying, that everything old becomes new!!!.What is the most effective way of getting a task,message or lesson through to any Species?The most effective way is obviously putting things in a way that is relevant to the Species specific Psychology of whatever Animal we are dealing with.Much like talking to an Australian in English rather than Chinese.

Dog Psychology has existed for as long as Dogs have of course.Dogs have always known how to relate to one and other.Dogs have always known how to train one and other.Hence my belief that everything old becomes new.

To me based on my experiences,indepth knowledge of Dogs was once far more common than Today.Back in time when Humans worked with Dogs in a much broader sense than today,the knowledge was more common and was a requirement so things functioned effectively.

Today,we see less knowledge due to many not having the exposure of those in the past.I find it a bit absurd,when some out in the Community buy a Dog and then seem alarmed, when this Dog actually acts like a Dog!!!!!

Again to me,the key is to understanding the very being and Psychology of a Dog.Once we can do that,everything will flow from that.Dogs have a big headstart on us in understanding,Dog Psychology and surely to do justice to us and our Dogs we need to catch up. Tony

[Vickie]

An interesting question Tony.

I sometimes think we have learnt too much. I look at the way my grandfather trained & lived with his his dogs & everything seemed so black & white & so much easier for them. Aggression was never discussed, nor was dominance, there was no cheerleading or BIG motivational techniques. What the dogs did was either right or wrong. If it was wrong they didn't repeat it too often.

I sometimes wonder if all this knowledge is really doing us (or more importantly the dogs) any good? Having knowledge is one thing but knowing how to apply it seems a totally different thing alltogether. There seem to be so many qualified dog trainers around these days...all the theory in the world but with so little experience.

Honestly I think the average person is better staying out of dog psychology, their chances of getting it right are pretty slim IMO & I think they can often do more harm than good.

Writing this makes me think about a mistake I made. I gave my husband a book to read on dog training. Before that he didn't interfere too much with my dogs. After it, he felt qualified to start interfering with their pack order. I had to put a stop to it quick smart. I have never interfered with my dogs order, they are more than capabale of sorting it out & we have never had issues, not have I ever felt sorry for the lowest in the pack. With my husbands "help" I could quickly see issues beginning to arise. Now I just tell him to stay out of it ;) & we have harmony once again.

Edited September 1, 2007 by Vickie

[Erny]

I look at the way my grandfather trained & lived with his his dogs & everything seemed so black & white & so much easier for them. Aggression was never discussed, nor was dominance, there was no cheerleading or BIG motivational techniques. What the dogs did was either right or wrong. If it was wrong they didn't repeat it too often.

Do you think it's that we've learnt too much, or more possibly that we've changed the way we view and treat dogs? Back in "grandfather's" days, the dog was often somewhat of a working dog (whether officially or not). There was much self-socialising because also back in those days, low density population in areas did not demand the laws to keep your dog in as they do now.

I sometimes think we have learnt too much.

I'm thinking that we find these days we NEED to learn where we didn't need to before. Because we treat and feel about dogs differently - or should I say perhaps more 'intensely' - we need to now be aware of how our treatment affects them and influences their behaviour.

I also think today's society is (and of course I'm generalising) a lot 'softer' than it used to be. Perhaps because our living conditions are not as harsh and sometimes cruel and necessitating as they used to be. In that, I can't help thinking that we aren't 'naturally' as assertive or even sometimes as practical (as would demand of us) as we might have otherwise been back then.

I don't think it was that "grandfather" knew ........ I think it was more that the natural ways of living and attitudes were perhaps more congenial to living in harmony with dogs than it might be now. Back then I think dogs were more "just dogs". By that I don't mean they weren't loved or cared for. I mean they were literally considered the lower ranking animal. Dogs know when you mean something and when you don't.

Edited September 1, 2007 by Erny

[Tonymc]

Thank you both Lady"s for your excellent posts.You both raise some very good points!!!! Tony

[SkySoaringMagpie]

I also think today's society is (and of course I'm generalising) a lot 'softer' than it used to be. Perhaps because our living conditions are not as harsh and sometimes cruel and necessitating as they used to be. In that, I can't help thinking that we aren't 'naturally' as assertive or even sometimes as practical (as would demand of us) as we might have otherwise been back then.

I agree. I also think that:

- many dogs that survive these days probably wouldn't have back then. The dog that could understand what is required and the dog that didn't get sick (and therefore show behavioural problems) would be the one who'd survive. The others would just disappear. Heck, I've heard stories from old timers about losing their beloved puppy because it came into season and the parents just said "right, it's going" and got rid of it.

- while the place of dogs in our lives has changed and we are "softer" our expectations of them and their behaviour have gone through the roof. People expect them to be perfectly clean indoors, to walk nicely on a leash, to not roam, to not bark, to put up with anything kids throw at them, etc etc. IOW, to not behave like dogs half the time.

- dogs adored my grandfather. He had no training in dog theory, he was just a quiet, slow moving, deliberate, decent man. All the neighbourhood dogs would stop and say hi to him. For those of us who are hyper 21st century people, we need training to do what came naturally to the old timers and part of getting people to practice what they learn is to explain why it works. People are reinforced on a constant basis these days for acting hyper, stressed, and skittish. "I'm soooo busy", "I'm sooo stressed". That kind of demeanor is death for being an effective trainer and it's hard to break through, so I'm totally in favour of books that explain why you need to smarten yourself up to speak the dog's language.

[horus]

I think that the main problem affecting owners training their dogs is anthromorphism. These days, because of social change, dogs can be seen as replacement children, rather than what they really are ie dogs.

And, as Vickie has stated, a little bit of knowledge (rather than a lot) can be dangerous.

[Tonymc]

Thank you Anita and Horus for some more excellent input!!!!

Anita, you raise a very relevant point about some Dogs of the present not surviving in the past.Very very very true.Some of the Dogs I have come across nowdays,I would not own or feed!!!!

Horus,Humanising Dogs is one of my Pet hates!!!!So much like talking to me or you in Chinese and expecting us to understand perfectly!!!People try to turn a Dog into a Human,then wonder why his behaviour as a Dog is confused,anxious,fearful and agressive. Tony

[Vickie]

Do you think it's that we've learnt too much, or more possibly that we've changed the way we view and treat dogs? Back in "grandfather's" days, the dog was often somewhat of a working dog (whether officially or not). There was much self-socialising because also back in those days, low density population in areas did not demand the laws to keep your dog in as they do now.

Hi Erny, while I agree with everything you are saying, I guess part of my point is about the options people now have to label their dogs. It seems often people feel the need to place dogs in one of 3-4 categories & each category has a specific way that it should be dealt with. I think there are more variations than this. I think my grandfather dealt with things as he saw them, without overanalysing or anthromorphising. He didn't look into why his dogs performed every behaviour they did & his interactions weren't tainted by these thoughts. I can also compare this to the way my 8 year old daughter interacts with my dogs. Without too much knowledge, she is black & white & all my dogs are a lot more willing to take a command from her than my husband for instance. I have noticed that if we have a dog staying with us who is a little timid, it is my daughter that makes a connection quickly. She does not tread quietly, she is just herself & the dogs respond. It is a lesson for me to watch & learn from her. I am trying to apply what I know constantly, she is just herself.

I see the same thing happening with parenting Lables like "ADHD" in children. My gut feeling is that this is a term used far too often by people unqualified to use it and the course of the childs life is changed as a result. It is easy to excuse so much when you have a label to apply to it and the nurture side of the equation changes accordingly. Likewise the word "gifted" has a whole set of similar issues surrounding it.

Noit sure if I have explained myself any better and as I said I certainly agree with everything you have said but was trying to make a more specific point.

Edited September 1, 2007 by Vickie

[Sarah L]

I don't know if I am going to answer this correctly or not but these are just my thoughts.

Dogs today have become a disposable item and are no longer looked upon as a vital part of our livelihood. Back in the days of my grandfathers working B/C they were cherished and needed for the survival of his sheep so they were treated and trained accordingly. He also let them in the house, not as pets but to keep them warm and they would quietly and happily lie beside the fire especially in winter. I know from a lot of my gundog friends back in Scotland today that they are treated firstly as working dogs and secondly as pets, however after a days work they will jump on their owners laps for a pat at night inside the house. What all this has in common is if there are any issues with these dogs, then they are looked at and dealt with according to the problem at hand. None of these people have behavioural degrees in dogs. All their dogs live to a ripe old age and are sadly mourned at their passing. They have a ton of experience in treating problems and even fixing health or injury to their dogs.

People today do not have the passed down proper knowledge that was once available through grandparents, parents who worked and treated dogs very well etc...... because dogs are not used in the same way any more, most only being family pets if one dog does not work out then according to todays standards you just get rid of it and get another one. So no knowledge is necessary really on the part of the average dog owner. But just ask anyone and they know all about dogs Hence I do believe people definately know less about dogs today than they did many years ago. Also there are an abundance of dog trainers today some good some really bad which I don't think is helping the problem otherwise why are there still so many dogs being put in pounds around Austraila.

[Tonymc]

Again Vickie,thank you for your input as it is appreciated. Pinnacle There is no correct or incorrect answer as you ask at the start of your post.Its much better to just post what you feel about this Topic.This you have done very very well and I thank you for your contribution!!!!Pinnacle many times somebody like you will raise a point I have not thought of and this I value as it broadens my outlook. Tony

[Working_Setters]

I mean they were literally considered the lower ranking animal.

They still are at my place. IMO to do otherwise is asking for trouble, else accepting that it's the dog running the show and not you.

Dogs know when you mean something and when you don't.

I always mean it, else it's a waste of breath and worse, teaches bad habits.

Tony, I think many people of today have lost their "animal" sense. The vast majority don't work with animals on a daily basis as they did in the past. Today I think there is an explosion of theoretical knowledge, got a problem training a dog, then buy a book, surf the net. In the past people were more isolated, they had to solve problems more independently. The DID it, were as today we READ about it. The difference b/t theory and practice. This I feel is a problem when it comes to dog training, as IMO the theory of dog training is quite simple, it’s the practice that’s the tricky bit. Which is why many in today’s society, big on theory but small on practice, struggle.

[Tonymc]

Rob,about time you turned up!!!!LOL Thanks for the input as its much appreciated.I reckon your right,so many have lost Animal Sense for sure.Yes many are great on the Theory but very weak on the practical Application for sure. Tony

[Lablover]

Again to me,the key is to understanding the very being and Psychology of a Dog.Once we can do that,everything will flow from that.Dogs have a big headstart on us in understanding,Dog Psychology and surely to do justice to us and our Dogs we need to catch up. Tony

Tony,

Do you think as people have generally less time, and may spend more time in the home, that simply observation of dogs (and criteria), are not used as frequently. As a child all the neighbour kids and the family dogs played together.

After all dogs do not lie - us mere humans must believe what we see ?

I'm tired again. Frankly I think I need a medical check. So sleepy all the time. Hope I make sense.

[Working_Setters]

I'm tired again. Frankly I think I need a medical check. So sleepy all the time.

LL - Sorry to hear this. Get well soon.

Best, Rob

[Vickie]

Again to me,the key is to understanding the very being and Psychology of a Dog.Once we can do that,everything will flow from that.Dogs have a big headstart on us in understanding,Dog Psychology and surely to do justice to us and our Dogs we need to catch up.

Hi Tony, it just occurred to me that I read your question & kind of went off on a tangent with thoughts that popped into my mind as I read it. I'm wondering if you can elaborate on the above? I think I know what you mean in general terms but am interested in what your thoughts are on how we as a culture can/should go about making some changes in order to catch up. Are there examples that are obvious to you of things we have got totally wrong? Are you speaking in terms of the way dogs sort things out amongst themselves or they way they learn, both? neither? Do you think we as humans get worse with each successive generation? How do we change the future?

I'm interested in hearing more of your own thoughts about this. LOL, so often you ask such great questions for others to consider, but I suspect you have a lot of very enlightening ideas/thoughts/experiences and rather than babble writing my opinions, my time would be better spent reading yours.

Vickie

Edited September 3, 2007 by Vickie

[Kelpie-i]

The "role" of dogs has changed dramatically over the last 30 or so years. The less we treat them as dogs, the more problems we will have, regardless of how much knowledge we possess.

Edited September 3, 2007 by Kelpie-i

[sidoney]

I don't think you can make a blanket statement about how dogs are treated and how people understand them (or not).

There are "now" people who want everything to happen "now" with little effort, and throw things away if they don't work.

There are people who don't understand that a dog is a dog, and don't understand the problems that this lack of understanding brings.

There are people who don't understand that a dog is more than an object, and don't understand the problems that this lack of understanding brings.

There are those that are "too busy" to do anything about their dog.

Those for whom their dog is very low on their list of priorities.

Statistically, when compared to the number of dogs and owners in society, the number of those that actually participate in dog training classes of any sort is tiny.

I think that the knowledge and experience is out there, for people who want to seek it. I think that people have to be discriminating "knowledge consumers" as much of it conflicts.

But the vast majority of people will never seek it.

[Kelpie-i]

Sidoney, it's not a blanket statement, it's the truth.

Only a small number of people actually acquire dogs for the sole purpose of working or training them (giving them a purpose) compared to the rest of society.

You said it yourself:

There are "now" people who want everything to happen "now" with little effort, and throw things away if they don't work.

There are people who don't understand that a dog is a dog, and don't understand the problems that this lack of understanding brings.

There are people who don't understand that a dog is more than an object, and don't understand the problems that this lack of understanding brings.

There are those that are "too busy" to do anything about their dog.

Those for whom their dog is very low on their list of priorities.

All of the above is not treating a dog as a dog.

Edited September 3, 2007 by Kelpie-i

[leopuppy04]

I sometimes think we have learnt too much. I look at the way my grandfather trained & lived with his his dogs & everything seemed so black & white & so much easier for them. Aggression was never discussed, nor was dominance, there was no cheerleading or BIG motivational techniques. What the dogs did was either right or wrong. If it was wrong they didn't repeat it too often.

I agree with this. We seem to be analysing every little thing that dogs do now, and putting meaning behind it rather than "it is because it is".... This results in people becoming confused and in turn, doing so many differing things that the dog becomes confused! From a trialling perspective, we are told to do so many things in a set way that in my mind, it can sometimes take the fun out of it. Make sure that x dog is not looking at yours in such a way as it will make it 'not perform' in the ring.... the list goes on. I'm not saying it is WRONG, but rather, we are starting to think too much!

I see this happen with human psychologists too where they try and analyse every little thing. I guess it has its positives and negatives, but I for one am of the mind 'the simpler the better'...

[Keshwar]

I'd like to address a couple of things. :D

First up, people get dogs for any number of reasons but I suspect that the main reason is simply because they can. They may have always had dogs in the family home, or their neighbours had a dog, or great uncle Fred had a wonderful dog who did everything, or they watched <insert famous dog name here> on TV or a movie and want a dog just like that or what I suspect is the most popular reason "look at that cute puppy!"

The level of actual planning for most people getting a dog is minimal. This leads to a lot of the problems that we now see.

Secondly, I think that we now understand the science behind animal behaviour a lot more. With a greater understanding of what makes the animals in our lives tick. Does this make us any better than our grandparents or ancient ancestors? I don't think so. I believe they had a more instinctual understanding of the animals in their lives. If a dog showed aggressive behaviour it didn't live long enough to bite anyone. If a cow didn't produce enough milk it became the next few meals. Basically a form of natural evolution.

Cheers

Bear.