Training The Timid Dog

[Maloo]

I guess the heading says it all. But to elaborate a little, here is a bit more info on myself and my dog.

Dog is 3 years old. I have had her since she was 8 weeks.

I trained my previous dog to CD and AD. So I'm by no means expert, but have a basic understanding of Obedience requirements.

Due to having a baby and other commitments, I have been slack with training for the Obedience ring.

But would love to start again.

My dog is very timid by nature, any loud noises, she runs and hides. You wouldn't dare growl at her or she'd just be beside herself. etc. Just basically a great big softy.

Today I got her out, in the front garden, and did a little bit of basic work. Heal, sits, drop etc. All these commands she knows as basic day to day life commands.

But she just seemed paniced by the whole idea? When I asked her to stand she would sit, and if I attemped to touch her, she would drop, and was unbudgable.

I just tried not to make a fuss and walked forward again and tried again in a very non confrontational manner.

But she just didn't seem to take to it at all.

When I took her lead off, she ran and hid under a bush! ;)

So, without waffling too long, what's the verdict?

I'm not going to give in, but I'd love to hear from other people who trial in obedience, and see if you think I am wasting my time trying to get her to a standard of competing for titles?

I don't want anyone to get the wrong idea and think I am going to give up or anything, this is just more to get a feel from other obedience competitors, on training the VERY timid dog??? Can it be done???

[bridgie_cat]

ummm... I have only had minor issues of this nature... so cant be of great help...

Are you using high value treats to get her into training? Or - what method of training are you using at the moment? With timid dogs, the important thing is that you dont give them any attention for their antics - you show them there is nothing to worry about and hopefully this will help with their confidence - if instead of focusing on making everything calm and slow so as not to frighten her - perhaps try and see if you can get her excited about doing tricks for you with some roast chicken or something she loves - doesnt have to be any obed work - teach her turn around (this is fun and easy for the dog) or shake... not so much drop as this is putting her in a submisive position again - and give her lots of treats and praise and see if you can get her to enjoy training a bit... if you can get this going then you may have better luck moving into obed work using treats...

That is JMO - im sure you will get all the experienced trainers in here to give better advice soon!

Good luck!

ETA - short and sweet training sessions - finish on a happy note - if you are starting to get frustrated (which can easily happen with probs like this!) STOP - dont let a dog like this know that you are not happy!!!

Edited September 1, 2007 by bridgie_cat

[Cosmolo]

I have a dog who started with extreme fear (panic bolting etc whenever there was a person around) who now has excellent obedience but i don't believe would cope with a trial simply because of the stand for exam. Teaching stand would be hard enough, let alone having a stranger approach, especially if it was a man. Its a real shame because the rest of her obedience is wonderful and she enjoys working so much- but she will never trial ;)

She has excellent stays and recalls and her heeling is bouncy and lovely- but a stand/ stand for exam would be so hard for her, she trusts me to 'look after her' and i couldn't do that properly in a trial ring. She also defaults to a drop when unsure- which is way better than bolting- but not so good for a trial! She is an extreme case though- so its hard to say without seeing your dog.

[poodlefan]

Oh yes... I can relate to this.

Lily, the Toy Poodle in my avatar was extremely timid as a youngster. She was OK at home but in classes we got to the point where she'd freeze and refuse to move. My instructor at the time said it wasn't worth stressing her so we moved sideways and started agility.

Poor Lil was completely overwhelmed. She'd bolt for my backpack (her place of safety) at the slightest pressure. We took months to do what other dogs did in weeks. However, I'm very patient and never got upset with her (she was doing the best she could) and eventually we started to make progress.

After getting her Novice agility and jumping titles, at the age of 8, I decided it was time to try obedience trialling again. We got her CCD last year and eventually I'll get around to CD. You'd not think she was the same dog she was as a youngster. She now has 3 JDX passes and agility trials with more zing now than in her younger days.

I can't be any more aversive than neutral with Lil and I went through a lot of instructors who clearly thought I was wasting my time but I did find a few who were prepared to encourage me.

Never never never give up but count your progress in terms of what you achieve, not what those around you do. It can be done.

Edited September 2, 2007 by poodlefan

[Maloo]

Thanks so much for your reply's guys!

It's so nice to get some other opinions.

I have tried her with the food, she is not really food orientated though. And yesterday I resorted to almost making training like play time, just to make it fun and encouraging. And she was happy to bound along with me, so all hope is not lost!

She sounds very similar to your dog Cosmolo, I can't get her to stand at this stage. If I attempt to touch her, she just drops.

I can't put her on a "correction chain" or anything at this stage, (I have always trained my dogs with these on, just to differentiate between training and play time/walks etc.) but if she knocks my leg or something, and get a fright and the chain make a zing noise, she takes off, or just rolls on her back.

I don't think she'll ever make a good "Obedience Trialling" dog, but just like your cases, it'll give me a sense of satisfaction however far she goes.

Thanks again for yoour honest and encouraging replies!

[Cosmolo]

Just one other thing to add- we do hope to trial Georgie in agility, perhaps this is an alternate path you could consider for your dog? Clarity is key when training any dog but particularly a fearful dog. Not to say it would be appropriate for your dog but we do use a correction chain on georgie and her confidence has improved in leaps and bounds.

[SkySoaringMagpie]

Figured this was as good a place as any to describe what happened to me today in a show ring.

I've been working on counter-conditioning one of my young dogs who has been nervous in the ring. Today he was great, we walked around the rings, we said hello to people, he let them handle him, he was standing nicely and calmly waiting to go in and I saw the judge looking at him with an open expression from outside the ring. All good so far.

Then someone marched up behind us. She had a broken metal chair, one of those little fold up jobs they give for prizes. She had it folded up and she slammed it it into the big metal bin which was a foot away from my dog. It made a terrible racket, and spooked him and he shot to the end of the lead. I had an initial urge to rip her head off, but sucked it up instead and went and ran him a bit before we went in. I was really, really disappointed tho', after all my work on him, it definitely unsettled him and I thought we were doomed.

He was not great in the stack, but he gaited beautifully and the judge understood that he had been given a fright just before he went in.

We got BOB

Two lessons there for me. First one is never underestimate what might happen ringside and keep some eyes in the back of your head. Second lesson is that if something bad happens, calm down and get to work fixing the issue

[KOE]

Thanks so much for your reply's guys! :cool:

It's so nice to get some other opinions.

I have tried her with the food, she is not really food orientated though. And yesterday I resorted to almost making training like play time, just to make it fun and encouraging. And she was happy to bound along with me, so all hope is not lost!

She sounds very similar to your dog Cosmolo, I can't get her to stand at this stage. If I attempt to touch her, she just drops.

I can't put her on a "correction chain" or anything at this stage, (I have always trained my dogs with these on, just to differentiate between training and play time/walks etc.) but if she knocks my leg or something, and get a fright and the chain make a zing noise, she takes off, or just rolls on her back.

I don't think she'll ever make a good "Obedience Trialling" dog, but just like your cases, it'll give me a sense of satisfaction however far she goes.

Thanks again for yoour honest and encouraging replies!

For what it is worth this is my 2 cents worth

First of all slow and easy can win the race in time.

Dont even bother with a metal check chain but a corded one instead, not as good as metal but will do the job,

For the stand you need to find something she really is in atune too like a fav toy or something, start off with a heel and then tell her to sit, providing you find something she really likes from a sit position you can try holding the thing in front of her pulling it slightly forward and as she rises from the sit tell her too stand this way there is no need to touch her, if she is a quick learner it wont take long.

[SkySoaringMagpie]

She sounds very similar to your dog Cosmolo, I can't get her to stand at this stage. If I attempt to touch her, she just drops.

I can't put her on a "correction chain" or anything at this stage, (I have always trained my dogs with these on, just to differentiate between training and play time/walks etc.) but if she knocks my leg or something, and get a fright and the chain make a zing noise, she takes off, or just rolls on her back.

I'd put her on a flat collar or flat martingale for now. Also, get someone to assess your body language while you're training.

Usually I don't talk like this but in this situation I think questions of dominance are relevant: it's possible she is unwilling to stand because she views it as a dominant gesture. In dog world, the submissive dog does not hold its position in a stand when a dominant dog approaches. It moves off to the side, or drops, or rolls over. The way to get around that is to get her to understand that standing is actually what you, the crazy human, want her to do. Reward/praise even a short stand. Catch her standing at home and reward it. Stop rewarding sits and drops except occasionally until her stand is solid.

There are some good books out there - I like "Help for your Shy Dog" by Deborah Wood. If you like reading a lot of detail, "Help for Your Fearful Dog" by Nicole Wilde also contains a lot of things to try. The Wood book profiles dogs that were impossibly shy that ended up succeeding beautifully in the ring.

[Maloo]

Again thanks Guys!

This advice is extremely helpful.

I will try to concentrate on her stand, as she would prefer to automatically sit, drop, or roll over!!! :cool:

I did question if she was veiwing me as a threat, so I actually tried going ot the end of the lead, and almost ignoring her, so she was standing on her own, then giving the command, and praise to encourage the stand position. so I might keep trying this approach, similar to anita's suggestion. thanks.

As mentioned about the correction chain, I usually would train with one, but because of this issue, I have just been using her normal flat collar. She is never going to be a dog you can pull or anything with the lead, the minute she feels any pressure, just sits, and would be dragged along the ground rather than stand.

Reading everyones comments has given me faith that positive encouragement along with patience, will help us overcome it!

I'll keep you posted! Thanks!

[poodlefan]

I think you can rush the stand with a timid dog.

I'd start at having the dog beside you in a sit.. .she'll take some comfort from your proximity. Just a quick chest rub and a treat from the examiner.

Move up to having her stand beside you... then slowly move around the front and increase distance. If you up the thoroughness of the exam, take it back closer to you.

Lil doesn't enjoy the stand for exam but she tolerates it.

A flat collar should be all you need for obedience trialling. After CCD the lead is off anyway.

[sidoney]

Do you specifically want to do obedience, or do you want to do something with your dog that you can both enjoy?

I've found that agility can be a terrific confidence booster for worried and timid dogs. It's less controlled than obedience, the focus is on making it fun and happy and rewarding, and learning to go over and through the things (in steps, not forcing them over!) helps dogs to master worries. Also you don't need to learn to be quiet so you can praise all you want.

Once you have established a good training relationship in agility, you could do what pf did with her timid dog, and then go back to have a go at obedience.

If you did decide to have a go at agility, make sure you go somewhere that focuses on the positive and trains using gradual steps.

[poodlefan]

Maloo:

And yesterday I resorted to almost making training like play time, just to make it fun and encouraging. And she was happy to bound along with me, so all hope is not lost!

I stewarded for UD at a trial on the weekend. The winner of the ring was an Aussie Shepherd who clearly thought he was having a series of games. It's such a wonderful thing to watch a dog work with enthusiasm and a willingness to try that quite frankly isn't evident in many of trialling dogs. The stress and displacement signals coming from a couple of the dogs in the ring were quite sad really.

Make ALL training like play time and trialling too.. and watch your dog's confidence grow.

Edited September 2, 2007 by poodlefan

[Maloo]

Yeah I do Agility also, I have jumps, tunnels and weave poles set up at home. But she is much the same with that.

I was doing some weaving with her on the weekend, and I tripped over (clumsy) and she bolted! :rolleyes:

Would have looked quiet funny if the neighbour had seen!!!

Anyway, thanks again for everyones replies! I have really enjoyed reading them, and have found them very encouraging!

Thanks

[Lablover]

How often is your dog walked off your property?

[Maloo]

Lablover, she usually gets walked off the property about 3-4 times a week?

But in saying that, we live on acerage also, and there is plenty going on here.

Horse trucks coming and going, my neighbours ride motorbikes, and the kids are out all the time playing.

We also have another property we visit about once a fortnight, and she goes down there to run around.

In my opinion she is very well socialised. :D

I guess this is why I am concerned it is her personality, and was wondering how others have delt with dogs like this.

[JulesP]

Maloo my border is like this. In particular I am having issues with stands, stays and retrieve, I get the flopping on the ground too. As a pet he is absolutely lovely.

I am considering taking a sideways step too and just doing something else for a while. Herding made him a bit anxious too so I am thinking about agility.

My club also has a social class, were they do alot of distraction stuff. It will help him or totally fizz his brain, not sure on that one. Any thoughts?

[Maloo]

Hi JulesP, dunno about the distraction classes either? Could be interesting?

What sort of things do they do?

I know my old club used to throw balls around, etc. during stays. Is it this sort of distraction during classes, or something completely different?

I currently don't go to actual Obedience classes, as I really wasn't happy with the local club, and thought it more beneficial to do training at home.

Wont go into those details, as it's sure to get off track!

I guess I do like my dogs to be able to diferentiate between working time and playing time with me and having their own time too.

So as for the distraction classes. I guess it would depend on the dog, and if the distraction class acts as a complete distraction or something you can use to make sure your dog is always concerntrating on you? But, I am no expert at all, so others might be able to share their opinions too?

The Agility is great.

My previous dog had two passes towards CD and I found was just lacking something, so that was when I started Agility with her. She loved it, and it renewed a spark in our work, so we could continue with our Obedience and gain CD title.

My current dog is hard to tell. Her confidence is shattered so easily :D

I would have to watch so closely I didn't raise my voice if she was heading towards a wrong obstical, and heaven forbin she knock or bump herself on the equipment. She'd just fall to pieces.

I don't mean to make her out to be such a head case, she really is such a loving sweet natured part of the family. Just has confidence issues.

Maybe I need some private type lessons with her? Any thoughts on that?

[CaseyKay]

My timid border collie girl (in my avatar) is just over 5 years old now. She does beautiful attentive heelwork, but only when she feels quite secure. Even things like a dog barking close by or a judge moving suddenly will put her off although she has become a lot more secure as she had gotten older. I still haven't done CD with her but that is my goal. Her stays are good. The stand for exam is a big issue, she is blind on one side, and if the person approaches from her good side, she is fine, but I have not been able to get to stay there if it is on her blind side. We also have problems with retrieving if she is worried about something. She goes out and lies on it instead of bringing it back.

She hasn't competed in agility either, even though I think she is better than the dog I do compete with (who is pretty good in her own right). I can't train her at club because it is counter-productive to getting her confidence up, too noisy, too many dogs in a small area, some dogs not under control, lots of barking etc. I train her on my own gear and she is so good. In the few agility shows I entered her in (couple of years ago), she would tend to go okay, as long as I carried her to the start line because so much as being barked at on the way past and she woudl lie down on the start line and not budge. Even on good runs where we got off the start line, she would hide in the first available tunnel and not come out.

Some sports I think could be suitable for shy dogs:

Herding. We used to use KC as a working dog when we were dairy farming. The same dog that rolls on her back if someone looks at her funny at a show had no problems moving 1200 cows several km, pushing them up into the yards, and dealing with bulls.

Tracking. Less people around I think is the thing for us here, it is just me and her working the track. She is good at tracking and enjoys it.