Barf Feeders

[koolietas]

My sheltie has/is suffering bouts of dermatitis along his muzzle and every now and then a pad or two on his feet...he has been fed a barf diets since he was 5-6 months old (now almost 3) and is supplemented with yoghurt, raw eggs, kelp powder, brewers yeast, flaxseed meal, garlic etc.

The dermatitis isn't too bad - but as the vet said that it may be food related...not sure where to start? or whether to start an elimination diet...

The vet also said that it could possibly be plastic that is causing the dermatitis - has anyone heard of this before? He has never had a plastic bowl (only ceramic) but I do freeze his juiced vegies in plastic containers so I'm wondering whether that might be the cause...

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

[poodlefan]

My sheltie has/is suffering bouts of dermatitis along his muzzle and every now and then a pad or two on his feet...he has been fed a barf diets since he was 5-6 months old (now almost 3) and is supplemented with yoghurt, raw eggs, kelp powder, brewers yeast, flaxseed meal, garlic etc.

The dermatitis isn't too bad - but as the vet said that it may be food related...not sure where to start? or whether to start an elimination diet...

The vet also said that it could possibly be plastic that is causing the dermatitis - has anyone heard of this before? He has never had a plastic bowl (only ceramic) but I do freeze his juiced vegies in plastic containers so I'm wondering whether that might be the cause...

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

No, no experience with it here.

Any chance it's contact dermatitis?? I'd have thought you'd get a more widespread reaction to a food allergy but I'm no skin expert.

[roxy's mum]

The vet also said that it could possibly be plastic that is causing the dermatitis

Yes, I have heard this. It can cause a pimply-type rash. My girl was getting this at one stage from a plastic water bowl. Apparently bacteria adheres to the plastic more so than a stainless steel dish/bowl.

Once I changed her water bowl to stainless the problem dramatically reduced!!!

[koolietas]

My sheltie has/is suffering bouts of dermatitis along his muzzle and every now and then a pad or two on his feet...he has been fed a barf diets since he was 5-6 months old (now almost 3) and is supplemented with yoghurt, raw eggs, kelp powder, brewers yeast, flaxseed meal, garlic etc.

The dermatitis isn't too bad - but as the vet said that it may be food related...not sure where to start? or whether to start an elimination diet...

The vet also said that it could possibly be plastic that is causing the dermatitis - has anyone heard of this before? He has never had a plastic bowl (only ceramic) but I do freeze his juiced vegies in plastic containers so I'm wondering whether that might be the cause...

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

No, no experience with it here.

Any chance it's contact dermatitis?? I'd have thought you'd get a more widespread reaction to a food allergy but I'm no skin expert.

Yes, I'm doubtful also that it would be food related...but I'm not sure. I am hedging more towards it being something else...which is why I was wondering whether it could be the plastic food containers that I put his veg mix in. I think I should invest in some glass containers and see if that helps. Dermatitis in shelties is quite common, but not something I've come across in my others before (and my other shelties weren't fed BARF!) Thanks for your reply

[koolietas]

The vet also said that it could possibly be plastic that is causing the dermatitis

Yes, I have heard this. It can cause a pimply-type rash. My girl was getting this at one stage from a plastic water bowl. Apparently bacteria adheres to the plastic more so than a stainless steel dish/bowl.

Once I changed her water bowl to stainless the problem dramatically reduced!!!

Yes, that's what it looks like...most of it is along his gum line (and unusually, only on one side).

Glad to hear that your gal is better. Definitely sounds like I'm going to have to ditch the plastic containers then.

Thanks for replying

[arby]

Hey koolietas

We have the same problem with out boxer Humphrey. Huge pimple like rash along his muzzle and chin, not so bad now though.

Definately ditch the plastic containers, we use a mix of stainless steel and ceramic. Also add some apple cider vinegar (the cloudy low processed ones) to the water, it helps clean up the muzzle and kills some of the bacteria. ACV works a treat, you can also add a little to the food.

[koolietas]

Hey koolietas

We have the same problem with out boxer Humphrey. Huge pimple like rash along his muzzle and chin, not so bad now though.

Definately ditch the plastic containers, we use a mix of stainless steel and ceramic. Also add some apple cider vinegar (the cloudy low processed ones) to the water, it helps clean up the muzzle and kills some of the bacteria. ACV works a treat, you can also add a little to the food.

Thanks Arby...he gets the ACV every day in his veg mix (so I've never added any to his water as well). The plastic containers will be gone shortly!

[monsterpup]

My sheltie has/is suffering bouts of dermatitis along his muzzle and every now and then a pad or two on his feet...he has been fed a barf diets since he was 5-6 months old (now almost 3) and is supplemented with yoghurt, raw eggs, kelp powder, brewers yeast, flaxseed meal, garlic etc.

The dermatitis isn't too bad - but as the vet said that it may be food related...not sure where to start? or whether to start an elimination diet...

The vet also said that it could possibly be plastic that is causing the dermatitis - has anyone heard of this before? He has never had a plastic bowl (only ceramic) but I do freeze his juiced vegies in plastic containers so I'm wondering whether that might be the cause...

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

It might be the plastic, but have you considered the flaxseed meal? Ian Billinghurst points out that if you over-supplement the flaxseed meal and oil you can upset the balance of the omega 6's and actually cause skin problems.

I know he's right, because I've done it

If I were you I'd just take the flaxseed meal out for 6 weeks or so, and see if it helps.

[Prydenjoy]

Ditch the flax seed meal (dogs don't utilize it anyway, waste of time and money) and add a fish oil supplement instead.

Also, ditch the brewers yeast, that can often cause allergies in dogs - I give my boys a B supplement instead and they thrive on it, without the itchiness

[koolietas]

My sheltie has/is suffering bouts of dermatitis along his muzzle and every now and then a pad or two on his feet...he has been fed a barf diets since he was 5-6 months old (now almost 3) and is supplemented with yoghurt, raw eggs, kelp powder, brewers yeast, flaxseed meal, garlic etc.

The dermatitis isn't too bad - but as the vet said that it may be food related...not sure where to start? or whether to start an elimination diet...

The vet also said that it could possibly be plastic that is causing the dermatitis - has anyone heard of this before? He has never had a plastic bowl (only ceramic) but I do freeze his juiced vegies in plastic containers so I'm wondering whether that might be the cause...

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

It might be the plastic, but have you considered the flaxseed meal? Ian Billinghurst points out that if you over-supplement the flaxseed meal and oil you can upset the balance of the omega 6's and actually cause skin problems.

I know he's right, because I've done it

If I were you I'd just take the flaxseed meal out for 6 weeks or so, and see if it helps.

I remembered that the other week but didn't think I would be oversupplementing...anyway, it's worth a shot - so I'll cease the flaxseed meal and see what happens...thanks for the tip monsterpup

[koolietas]

Ditch the flax seed meal (dogs don't utilize it anyway, waste of time and money) and add a fish oil supplement instead.

Also, ditch the brewers yeast, that can often cause allergies in dogs - I give my boys a B supplement instead and they thrive on it, without the itchiness

I only follow what IB has in his books, so I don't know why he'd have it in there if dog's don't utilise it? But then again, he also says in the books that you can feed grapes/sultanas etc.

I have never heard about brewers yeast being an allergen for some dogs...thanks for letting me know. The vet that saw Koolie a few weeks ago has no idea about barf diets, so there was no point asking him about supplements etc!

[zayda_asher]

A lot of dogs will also get the itchies from alfalfa if you are using that.

It could also be that the diet is not balanced right... some vit / mineral deficiencies can cause such problems. You may want to try analysing the diet and see how it stands up. Monica Segal's book: Optimal Nutrition will give you the tools to do this.

Its quite possible that an intolerance or deficiency is the culprit. Intolerances are different to allergies (you can do a google for the difference). Its possible he has allergies, but if those are his only symptoms I wouldn't think so...

[JulesP]

I would be looking at what plants you have in your garden too! If doggy has it on his paws that could be a sign he is walking on something that he has an allergy to. My pup did get itchies on his nose when he had a plant allergy. Not on his paws though as he wasn't walking on the culprit he was laying on it!

[Prydenjoy]

But then again, he also says in the books that you can feed grapes/sultanas etc.

Exactly... And he also advocates feeding milk, even though most dogs are intolerant of it!

Can't find any references to back up the thing about flax seed though, but a dog nutritionist on an email list I'm on has apparently read up on some recent studies about it. Besides, why feed a plant based product to a dog when you could feed an animal based product? Also, dogs diets are natrually out of balance with omega 3 and 6, feeding flax wont fix that problem because it has omega 3 and 6 in balance, which isn't good if you only need to boost the omega 3, for this reason I recommend fish oil. If you want to supplement with omega 3 and 6 as well as boosting the omega 3 with fish oil, then I'd suggest adding Emu oil also.

As for Brewers Yeast, well it is quite a common allergen for dogs, lots of dogs can handle it, others can't. You'll even find warnings from distributers such as on this page

Good luck finding what's wrong with your puppa!

[Andisa]

My sheltie has/is suffering bouts of dermatitis along his muzzle and every now and then a pad or two on his feet...he has been fed a barf diets since he was 5-6 months old (now almost 3) and is supplemented with yoghurt, raw eggs, kelp powder, brewers yeast, flaxseed meal, garlic etc.

I have been feeding Billinghurst way for about 3 yrs. Lately I have been alternating Barf, and Vets all Natural / meat, no reason other than variety. I did notice some skin changes in my Rottie during the change over, no idea why really, I give her 3 fish oil caps daily and now her skin is back to normal. The RMB's are all the same, so it must have something to do with the mixes. Apple cider vinegar is also excellent to add to food to improve the skin.

I hope this may help.

[zayda_asher]

Exactly... And he also advocates feeding milk, even though most dogs are intolerant of it!

Can't find any references to back up the thing about flax seed though, but a dog nutritionist on an email list I'm on has apparently read up on some recent studies about it. Besides, why feed a plant based product to a dog when you could feed an animal based product? Also, dogs diets are natrually out of balance with omega 3 and 6, feeding flax wont fix that problem because it has omega 3 and 6 in balance, which isn't good if you only need to boost the omega 3, for this reason I recommend fish oil. If you want to supplement with omega 3 and 6 as well as boosting the omega 3 with fish oil, then I'd suggest adding Emu oil also.

Most dogs are only intolerant of dairy because we stop feeding it to them, therefore, they stop producing lactase to digest it. If you keep feeding them dairy then they will keep producing lactase and, in general, have no issues.

Flax seed is not as good because the omega 3s are in a form that needs converting for use (because they are plant based), this means that you have to take more (much more) of it to get the same amount as you do from a smaller dose of fish oil, which

doesn't need converting by the body to utilise. You should be able to find more info if you google that...

[Prydenjoy]

Most dogs are only intolerant of dairy because we stop feeding it to them, therefore, they stop producing lactase to digest it. If you keep feeding them dairy then they will keep producing lactase and, in general, have no issues.

Good point, although he doesn't meantion that in his book (at least not the grow your pups one, unless I missed something!). Still, I don't see that milk is "necessary" as he says it is. Yoghurt, yeah I can see the point in feeding that, milk, I don't understand what his reasoning is. I am intolerant to milk, it doesn't give me the squirts like it does with some dogs, it gives me eczema, I have friends who get stomach aches from it - How do we know if our dog is getting a mild stomach ache every time it has milk? Considering it is not necessary, and Billinghurst doesn't set a good arguement to feed it, I'd prefer err on the safe side and keep my dogs happy, and just as healthy as they would if they did get milk

[poodlefan]

LisaM if you've been seeing changes after switching from BARF to Vetsallnatural, is this going from feeding no grains to feeding grains??

[zayda_asher]

Good point, although he doesn't meantion that in his book (at least not the grow your pups one, unless I missed something!). Still, I don't see that milk is "necessary" as he says it is. Yoghurt, yeah I can see the point in feeding that, milk, I don't understand what his reasoning is. I am intolerant to milk, it doesn't give me the squirts like it does with some dogs, it gives me eczema, I have friends who get stomach aches from it - How do we know if our dog is getting a mild stomach ache every time it has milk? Considering it is not necessary, and Billinghurst doesn't set a good arguement to feed it, I'd prefer err on the safe side and keep my dogs happy, and just as healthy as they would if they did get milk

Yeah, I certainly don't feed milk either... we do use youghurt and cheese though. And no, I don't think he made that point in his book...

[Andisa]

LisaM if you've been seeing changes after switching from BARF to Vetsallnatural, is this going from feeding no grains to feeding grains??

I don't feed the full strength VaN, as I don't want to give too much grains to her (still don't like the idea of grains all together) but she otherwise seems fine. I usually only use 1/3 of the mixture. At first her skin went a little flaky, but with the fish oil caps that was soon sorted out. By the sounds of things apart from the grain in VaN, there is not that much difference with that and the barf. I think that it depends on what meat / meat-bone that is mixed with the VaN. My Rottweiler has NEVER eaten dry or canned food ever, so I can not compare grains with her, other than the little she has had with the VaN.

I was only trying this out but will go back to the barf, as I am a Barf distributor. I am looking in to stocking both, so out of curiosity I thought that I should give it a go.

I have noticed that the end product is not as good as when she was on all Barf though. So picking up after her is not as pleasant.

I have also tried all RMB's no Barf or VaN and following Lonsdales way as well. Adding organ meat 2 x p/wk. I will give pretty much give anything a go just so long as I stick to Raw. I do believe that like any diet, there is more than one way to feed Raw.

I do personally think that Billinghurst based diet is a bit too bony, so extra meat needs to be fed to avoid constipation. I suppose that it all depends on the dog that is being fed.

Just out of curiosity I have noticed that my 13 yo Maltese is not keen on the Billinghurst Barf diet, but will eat the meat/VaN. or home made barf without garlic / brewers yeast. He is a Chicken man by choice. This little man has never been in better health since he has been raw fed. He has a heart murmur, kidney or liver problems (can't remember which) arthritis in his L fr foot. He is medication free and stuts his stuff as good as the young dogs. Changing his diet possibly saved his life. He was barely 2 + kgs when we got him 5-6 yrs ago and for the first couple of years that we had him, we could never get the weight on him. After a huge struggle changing his diet over (he ate next to nothing for 2 weeks) he is in the best condition of his life. He averages 4 kg +/ -. He is 22cm high. He can grow his coat long now, before a natural diet his coat would break off when it was only an inch long. His skin is like that of a young dog. His ears look "brand new" and his eyes are still quite clear. Not bad for 13 yrs, most people ask me "how old is your puppy, she's beautiful". You would never know that he is 13 yo male.