Reddii Posted August 22, 2007 Share Posted August 22, 2007 Hey all, Mr CK is now just shy of 10 months and after our broken elbow/keep quite problems is coming along really well. One little concern I have is that he is beginning to herd everything (well, he is a BC) and the force is strong in this one. I can recall him from whatever he is doing, but the point is I'd rather not have to call him out of every interaction with another dog/cat/bird and potentially child, although we haven't had that problem yet. Any ideas on the best way to manage this situation before it gets out of hand. He is currently at level 3 in obedience, loves it and I want us to trial in time. I will probably also introduce him to sheep, agility and flyball in the coming 12 months so I don't really want to extinguish the behaviour all together. I'm not aware of any leadership issues and both my dogs will do exactly what they are told when they are told (depending on their level of training of course) and if not will correct their behavior with one step in their direction and a look or at worst a harsh word. We do have some doggy dominance issues at present as the balance of power seems to be shifting from 14month Xena (tiny BC bitch) to CK who is much bigger and more willful. That's about all I can think of. Any help would be appreciated. Cheers. Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riles Posted August 22, 2007 Share Posted August 22, 2007 Can I ask what your concerns are in relation to the herding behaviour? Rosie herds EVERYTHING, we were all sitting at the outdoor table last night and she just did laps of the table and all of us, no bad has ever come from it and I've never tried to stop her so I'm unsure what is worrying you Riles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reddii Posted August 23, 2007 Author Share Posted August 23, 2007 Can I ask what your concerns are in relation to the herding behaviour? Rosie herds EVERYTHING, we were all sitting at the outdoor table last night and she just did laps of the table and all of us, no bad has ever come from it and I've never tried to stop her so I'm unsure what is worrying you Riles The behaviour itself doesn't worry me at present, but we have a number of young children in the extended family who we see quite often. At this stage the kids are not old enough to be let out of sight, but it is not too far off that they will be able to play in the yard on their own. I'm not suggesting the dogs would be let run loose with them, but I also don't want any accidents if we take our eyes off them for 2 seconds. The dogs are part of the family and we are not keen on having to seperate them from us or keep them on lead every time we see the family for the next 5 years or so. Maybe I'm not being realistic - if so then I'll have to work out another way to manage it, looking for any opinions though. Cheers. Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelpie-i Posted August 23, 2007 Share Posted August 23, 2007 Reddii, you have a BC!! This is what they are bred to do. Unless your dog is working sheep all day, this is not behaviour you can switch on and off as you please. All herding breeds carry a strong instinct to herd, some more than others. In BC's (and other breeds as well) this instinctive behaviour can actually turn into a Compsulsive disorder if you don't provide it with an outlet. Apart from obedience, do you involve the dog in other sports ie. herding or flyball etc. Doing this will help the situation but as long as kids are running around acting like "sheep", your dog is only going to do what comes naturally. Your best bet is to separate the dog from the kids if you cannot be there to supervise or keep the dog on lead. Teach the children to play fetch with the dog (if old enough) so that instead of chasing them, he is chasing the ball or frisbee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riles Posted August 23, 2007 Share Posted August 23, 2007 I agree with Kelpie-i's great advice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reddii Posted August 23, 2007 Author Share Posted August 23, 2007 Reddii, you have a BC!! This is what they are bred to do. Unless your dog is working sheep all day, this is not behaviour you can switch on and off as you please.All herding breeds carry a strong instinct to herd, some more than others. In BC's (and other breeds as well) this instinctive behaviour can actually turn into a Compsulsive disorder if you don't provide it with an outlet. Apart from obedience, do you involve the dog in other sports ie. herding or flyball etc. Doing this will help the situation but as long as kids are running around acting like "sheep", your dog is only going to do what comes naturally. Your best bet is to separate the dog from the kids if you cannot be there to supervise or keep the dog on lead. Teach the children to play fetch with the dog (if old enough) so that instead of chasing them, he is chasing the ball or frisbee. I know I have a BC - believe me, I know. He is the good one, the other one is the reason BC's end up in rescue, total psycho and totally obsessed. Funny part is CK's Kennel name is 'Totally Obsessed and Xena is the more obsessive one!!!! I had a nasty feeling this might be the type of answer I get. It's not a problem, just not ideal and something I have to look out for - part of the breed I love. The kids are a bit young, but fortunately they are all about the same age so in another few years they can all learn about fetch together. Don't worry about the dogs being bored or under stimulated. CK is about to begin basic agility and flyball will follow shortly. Xena is already going to both - she hates obedience though so we don't take her there - she is pretty good, but hates it and I find it tends to interfere with agility as she constantly wants to be on my left and works much better on that side. She also does frisbee and he is about to start with more than just rolling frisbees as well. All in all it's 4 nights a week, plus the weekend. Once CK is a bit more settled at obedience I'm going to look to get into herding as well. Used to have a life before I got my dogs, now they are my life! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tassie Posted August 23, 2007 Share Posted August 23, 2007 Reddii - my take on this behaviour (which is maybe more prey-drive behaviour than specifically 'herding') is that if it bothers you, and particularly if it looks like it might turn into a compulsive sort of behaviour, then you need to stop it - and redirect the dog to something else. Working sheepdogs do not/should not engage in herding behaviour off their own bat. It is something they have to learn to switch on when required, and most importantly, switch off. My BC girl has done some sheep-work - working as a farm dog - and is keen, but the other day at a tracking trial, when there were sheep all over the start of her track, I was able to switch her on to tracking by using the "Not those ones - we don't need those" that I would use on the farm when we were walking through a paddock with sheep we didn't need to round up. "That'll do" is one of the most important commands for a BC - and for a pet/sport dog I like to follow it up with a re-direct to some other acceptable activity. So if CK is going to do agility and obedience, you could stop the undesired behaviour, and ask him for a few lead hand changes (putting him in handler focus for agility) or ask him for a little heeling, and/or some positions - or maybe have a quick game of tug with him, or send him out to a target - that sort of thing. I would do this each time you saw him take off, especially around kids and cats. (I cut my guys slack around birds, since after all the birds eat the fruit that my BC boy wants from my trees.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BC Posted August 23, 2007 Share Posted August 23, 2007 (edited) Coopers instinct is very very strong. I can call him off, but I could never get it out of him if I tried. His sole purpose when he is inside is to herd the cats. It keeps him busy all night. He never nips and the cats just ignore him and keep doing whatever it is they do, so I normally just let him go. I chanel his energy into obedience etc, and I will be herding with him one day, but I just manage it. If someone is coming over, and I dont think they will appreciate his herding, or if he is just driving me insane, I will put him in his crate with a pig ear to chew on, and he calms down heaps. Just something you will always need to manage as you will never stop this behaviour. As the kids get older just make sure they know what to do if the herding kicks in. They are not to run, and then you can put CK away if things get a little out of hand. Edited August 23, 2007 by BC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fidelis Border Collies Posted August 23, 2007 Share Posted August 23, 2007 All in all it's 4 nights a week, plus the weekend. Once CK is a bit more settled at obedience I'm going to look to get into herding as well.Used to have a life before I got my dogs, now they are my life! I would be trying the herding before you put too much obedience on him, as I have found dogs with alot of obedience are sometimes hard to turn on as they are always looking for the handler and it masks the dog natural ability Tracey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelpie-i Posted August 23, 2007 Share Posted August 23, 2007 Yes agree with FBC here. Too much obedience can actually be a hindrence to herding. Tassie: Reddii - my take on this behaviour (which is maybe more prey-drive behaviour than specifically 'herding') is that if it bothers you, and particularly if it looks like it might turn into a compulsive sort of behaviour, then you need to stop it - and redirect the dog to something else. This is the problem with herding instinct Tassie, whilst it stems from prey drive, it is a work instinct which can be difficult to switch off in "raw" herding breeds. Regular herding lessons will teach the dog the "off" switch but that doesn't mean these dogs will not 'help themselves' if the opportunity arises. This is why most working dogs on farms are not left to roam the property when not working. They are usually kept in crates or kennels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reddii Posted August 23, 2007 Author Share Posted August 23, 2007 All in all it's 4 nights a week, plus the weekend. Once CK is a bit more settled at obedience I'm going to look to get into herding as well.Used to have a life before I got my dogs, now they are my life! I would be trying the herding before you put too much obedience on him, as I have found dogs with alot of obedience are sometimes hard to turn on as they are always looking for the handler and it masks the dog natural ability Tracey Thanks to all for your responses. Didn't think about that Tracey. Do you think 10 months is too young to introduce them to sheep? Also, once we introduce them to sheep do you advise obedience on going or are they not compatible? Cheers. Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted August 23, 2007 Share Posted August 23, 2007 I recently went to a herding workshop with my youngest girl who had never worked sheep before but had done extensive obedience, agility and scent detection training. She had no problems switching on and i don't think doing obedience in conjunction with herding would be a problem. In many cases doing one will help the other either way. The herding was heaps of fun- although i never realised how un co ordinated i was until we did it!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reddii Posted August 23, 2007 Author Share Posted August 23, 2007 I recently went to a herding workshop with my youngest girl who had never worked sheep before but had done extensive obedience, agility and scent detection training. She had no problems switching on and i don't think doing obedience in conjunction with herding would be a problem. In many cases doing one will help the other either way. The herding was heaps of fun- although i never realised how un co ordinated i was until we did it!! I know exactly how unco I am - boys should not dance unless drunk and should not try agility with a fast dog unless.......still trying to work that out. Maybe one day it will come to me. Good to hear another view. T Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelpie-i Posted August 23, 2007 Share Posted August 23, 2007 Reddii, herding dogs can start on sheep as young as 6 weeks old (not so much working but more for the socialisation factor at that tender age ) At 10 months, your dog is more than ready to commence. Cosmolo, it's not so much the dog switching on, but rather some dogs are not used to working opposite their handlers. They have always been taught to work at heel or to the side of the handler and all of a sudden you ask it to work opposite - this can confuse some dogs. Most dogs do well, but I have seen those who have had a bit of trouble. The main things that are important when herding is a stop and a recall - although not necessary as your instructor can show you how to teach these when working in the round yard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lablover Posted August 23, 2007 Share Posted August 23, 2007 Reddii, I feel your pain. I have one labrador who is what I consider a little mad. He must have something in his mouth at all times. Control is important including in the house (crate etc,) otherwise he continuously will retrieve. He loves pillows and his metal bowl!!!!!! for example. Toilet rolls on window ledges- yes he jumps up on the cistern. He will happily play with his bowl for hours, flipping it about, rolling it on the ground with his nose. I noted this behaviour very young, when he began delivering dead baby birds and rats. Anything. Tiring him out helps, mental stimulation and as mentioned control. He used to pace also, but this has ceased. He is a big panter!!!!!! He is not classically nervous.......just strange!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted August 23, 2007 Share Posted August 23, 2007 Kaos is very keen on sheep, we are still working on 'Stop' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lablover Posted August 23, 2007 Share Posted August 23, 2007 Kaos is very keen on sheep, we are still working on 'Stop' After I pressed enter to my post, I let my nutter outside. Accidently left a bowel outside. Watching through the window he is pushes it about. I look on the bright side. Another little proofing "stop" opportunity. One good thing about manics, is they offer so many opportunities to train. Off I go!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelpie-i Posted August 23, 2007 Share Posted August 23, 2007 LL: After I pressed enter to my post, I let my nutter outside. Accidently left a bowel outside Ouch did that hurt! Sorry Lablover, did you mean bowl??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lablover Posted August 23, 2007 Share Posted August 23, 2007 (edited) O, sorry. LOL LOL LOL. I should never post on DOL, during the witching hour. I did think of grabbing the video recorder as my nutter was chasing his BOWL and adding the link. BTW, he will chase his BOWL, even when it is covered by missed BOWEL movements. Yucky to wash!!!! Edited August 23, 2007 by Lablover Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonymc Posted August 23, 2007 Share Posted August 23, 2007 Prey Drive in a BC,Kelpie,Catahoula and so on is herding!!!Reddi there is no way you will surpress this behaviour.You might as well try to stop Pigs rolling in the Mud!!!You do need to find an outlet otherwise your on the way to a Neurotic Dog.Try to surpress the Herding behaviour and it will take another unhealthy form. Kelpie-I has given some good advice in her posts.Dogs like this are great with strong prey drive and good nerves,not some wishy washy watered down thing. Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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