Show Training & Obedience Training

[BC]

Anyone who does both show and obedience, do you train your dogs in both disciplines at the same time, eg, from when they're a puppy, or do you wait until the showing is done and then you concentrate on obedience.

I ask the question, as my new puppy will be doing both, and after doing some practise with my friends older show dogs the other night, they do contradict each other.

Eg, when gaiting you need them away from you and in front, and in obedience you obviously want them close.

Different stand signals and positions etc.

I am keen to do both at a very young age, and am confident I can train my bitch to understand the difference but just wondering what others do ?

[MonElite]

I do both.

the main differences were the heeling v's the run around the show ring. I a different body posture as a cue as well as I use different collar.

Another thing was that I tought my dog a word stand as one of the first things, so in case she did attempt to do the auto sit in the show ring I would give her a stand command.

I have no major problems, she never attempted to sit in the ring and does nice auto sits when doing obedince heeling.

As for free standing in the ring - again I have a specific body posture and a hand signal and she knows the difference very well.

[SkySoaringMagpie]

Anyone who does both show and obedience, do you train your dogs in both disciplines at the same time, eg, from when they're a puppy, or do you wait until the showing is done and then you concentrate on obedience.

I am keen to do both at a very young age, and am confident I can train my bitch to understand the difference but just wondering what others do ?

I am getting show titles on ours first but that is due to limited time available to attend obedience classes and shows not a question of whether you can train both together. I still do basic obedience with our guys at home. Some show people will be horrified by it but it's fine as long as you keep your cues very clean. A dog can understand the difference between gaiting and heeling if you cue them separately. For example, use "show" as a cue to gait and "heel" as a cue to heel.

The other thing we did was to try and work on stand as a default behaviour. Unfortunately that didn't stick, but I figure the odd bum down in the show ring is nothing to worry about provided you can cue them into a stand right away and I can. Usually my dogs don't offer a sit in the show ring anyway and if they do it's a good sign I need to chill out

Plus most judges will recognise and not penalise an obedience trained dog

[BC]

Thanks,

I was thinking to get my bitch used to different collars etc, for obedience and showing, and of couse different cues.

The dogs I was working with the other night, are cued by the word "gait" and the word "stand" but with a pointed finger above their head with the right hand.

They are very different signals to the ones I use in obedience so I am sure I will be able to train both. Lets see how I go could be a complete disaster.

[jesomil]

The problem i am having with my pup is that as soon as she sees food, she sits as I have worked alot on obedience.

It would be easier to teach showing first but certainly not impossible teaching both together, you just need seperate commands and cues.

[Mystiqview]

I train both. Stand is stand. but when I teach stand rather than an obedience any stand will do.. i teach them to more to stand as if they are on a stack then stand still as if for obedience..(no feet to move) So basically my stand is free stack.

As far as sitting when the dog automatically sees food... do not reward the sit as soon as they see food (your post implies this). Do heel, sit reward... Do heel, stand reward.. The only difference is then when you come to a halt in a show ring, you will have to use the command stand.. rather than really say nothing.

There are some things like fetch, articles, scent discrimination that are very easy to teach as a puppy... as everything is a game.. I focus possibly more energy on this from 8 weeks on.. Lead work.. yeah... But I teach heel generally offlead anyway with food to start with.. then attach a lead later. Gets really nice heel free.

[TangerineDream]

In the past, I've done show and obedience at the same time with all my pups. Sit and stand are both taught and we never have confusion. I like the others use different cues, both in equipment and clothing - show lead and collar are only ever used for show training or at shows, never for anything else and a particular set of behaviours is expected when this rig is on - and my clothing at shows is different. With standard check chain and ordinary lead, the obedience expectations kick in.

This time round I've been lazy and just shown Tango before I took him to obedience class (all of his obedience training has been done just with me), but with Victoria's winter and shows in Melbourne (5 days a week is enough of the place.....), we've done obedience this winter for the first time (can't rush these things...he's still not quite 2 yo ), within 3 minutes on his first day he was working in the 3rd class, with no confusion re the commands.

I'd get 2 sets of collar & lead, 2 sets of clothes (show and obedience) and use specific commands for the behaviour you want (oh, and I also only ever use cheese as show bait and to 'stand', so at obedience I use anything else except cheese)...so Tango thinks 'cheese' = 'stand'

Edited August 22, 2007 by TangerineDream

[Dogsfevr]

"Some show people will be horrified "

I dont now any show person that would be horrified,the only time show people will add there input is when someone has focused so much on the sit it does it automatically & the dog is very confused.I have done both but i made sure the dog was very offay with "stand" & then added the sit.

The healing can be an issue if the dog doesnt understand show/obedience.The problem with the close heel is the dog looks up & it often alters the dogs front movement so when the dog runs in the ring in the heel position you often see the flip/flop front instead of reach so its important to define show run

[SkySoaringMagpie]

"Some show people will be horrified "

I dont now any show person that would be horrified,

I don't know about Western Australia, but I have certainly been told here in the Eastern States that I should not obedience train my dog under any circumstances because that means it will sit in the ring. Note I said "some show people" - there are other show people here who win Dunbar medals and who are fine with people doing obedience and show at the same time.

(I actually think show training is a form of obedience training anyway!!)

Anita

[The Spotted Devil]

I'm only new to showing but have trained a fair bit in obedience/agility in the past. It's definitely a "time" factor for me at the moment so I am concentrating on showing but I do a variety of training with Zig. He behaves quite differently - flat collar equals loose lead relaxed walking (well, we're working on it ), show lead equals gaiting, clicker and no collar around the house means heeling (just position - no sits/stands/drops), clicker and me sitting down means some shaping, sit stay and favourite toy means 'hide and seek'. Meanwhile we are working on 'watch' before his dinner and a variety of other things. I only train one 'style' per session - it seems to keep the little bugger guessing and out of mischief...mostly

[helen]

I have done both, but the first thing my dogs learnt was stand. I also don't get serious about training for obedience while they are young and they are shown a fair bit when young.

[capanash]

BC, you can do both and one can compliment the other. A free moving dog, trained to heel can look much better than one strung up tightly on a show lead.

Freya was obedience trained before she began her show career, we used different collars and also changed handlers. The hardest thing we found after retiring her from conformation showing was to sit without command.

I can take her son, Fabio, around the showring without a lead and he will move correctly and stay with me. I haven't taken him to any formal obedience classes, obedience people don't take a poodle in show trim seriously. Freya's daughter, Lea, will resume her trialling career soon and she will be in show trim.

[leopuppy04]

BC - you can easily do both! I am yet to have a 'regular' problem with Kinta mucking up her showing by 'sitting' or 'heeling' or by loosing focus in obedience. In the initial phases - yes, she may have been a little confused, so I just broke it down into separate training sessions for each exercise and also use different commands. I think she has 'once' begun to sit in the show ring and she did go through a prancing phase in the show ring but that was my fault for not teaching her to 'show'

Think of is this way - our body language is completely different when showing to when we are doing obedience - as is their position relative to you. I guess the biggest problem for me was 'focus'.... as Kinta would 'watch' my every move - so I solved that by putting her reward away from me and she has since focussed forward when showing.

I use the same stand signal and position, but as someone pointed out to me a 'show training' (she also does both), the motions are the same - but if you want the free stack maybe use an additional command such as 'feet' etc.

For heeling, I use 'heel' - that is the position they are required to maintain - and I teach that 'position' pretty early on. But when you go on your walk - a dog doesn't heel the whole time?? Coz we haven't given that command etc . Same for showing - I use the word 'gait' and the dogs 'know' that word - as soon as I say 'gait' even when walking - they will switch 'pace' to 'gait'.... They will also look forward

Next is the different training leads etc. I was always doubtful as to whether this was true or not.... but the funny thing is - I put the show lead on and pull it up behind their ears and wha-la - the dog rarely sits and *shows* herself off!! I put the obedience collar/ lead on and I have constant focus and offered heeling.... weird huh?!

Just my 2c

PS - any news yet???

[leopuppy04]

"Some show people will be horrified "

I dont now any show person that would be horrified,

I don't know about Western Australia, but I have certainly been told here in the Eastern States that I should not obedience train my dog under any circumstances because that means it will sit in the ring. Note I said "some show people" - there are other show people here who win Dunbar medals and who are fine with people doing obedience and show at the same time.

(I actually think show training is a form of obedience training anyway!!)

Yep - I get that too - along with you can't do agility and obedience together

[Seita]

BC, like everyone else has said you should have no probs training both at the same time. I too have had show people tell me that I should not do obedience or show training should be done first and only once the dog is really good at that should obedience training be started. Well my girl learnt stand as her first command and I did teach gaiting before heeling but I did a lot of foundation obedience work for a few months before I even started training heel, I teach commands and games first and heel later when they are a little more mature! Now she does both heel and gaiting without any confusion - I do use seperate leads and collars. Show chain and lead for showing and a martingale and stronger lead for obedience. She gets shown pretty often and is almost ready for CCD and she's not quite 18months old!

[shellbyville]

I show my lab and he free stands really well. He is almost 1 year old and I realised I have never really taught him to sit. I always have used stand as my main command, for the same reason as others I did not want him to sit.

I am starting a beginners obedience class with him soon and am having a challenge teaching him to sit. Sometimes he gets it and other times he looks at me as though to say 'What the..." Any suggestions. Sorry to but in on someone elses thread!

[BC]

Thanks everyone, I feel really positive about it now. I'm gunna give it a go

Helps if I have a pup first. Hopefully by the end of October I'm going to see some 3 week olds on Sunday.

[Sayreovi]

"Some show people will be horrified "

I dont now any show person that would be horrified,

I don't know about Western Australia, but I have certainly been told here in the Eastern States that I should not obedience train my dog under any circumstances because that means it will sit in the ring. Note I said "some show people" - there are other show people here who win Dunbar medals and who are fine with people doing obedience and show at the same time.

(I actually think show training is a form of obedience training anyway!!)

Yep - I get that too - along with you can't do agility and obedience together

Same here along with 'flyball makes your dog nuts' and 'i wouldnt do flyball if you want to do obedience'

I do both, dog knows the difference, there is a different environment, different collar and different commands.

Youngest wasnt really trained much in formal obedience when young, nor shown much but knows the difference easily. One means he gets to prance around looking pretty!!

ETA: I dont say 'stand' in the ring because of obedience, instead i say 'show' that way dogs arent confused as to what i want. Dont use 'stay' for dont move either, its 'steady' for the show ring

Edited August 23, 2007 by tollersowned

[Yarrowfell]

My guys do both at the same time. In fact one of ours got her championship title (conformation) in the morning and a pass in a trial in the afternoon, all on the same day.

I also have 2 that are currently showing, trialling and learning Flyball so no reason you can't.

I use "heel" in obedience and "walking" in the show ring as commands.