Puppy With A Severe Case Of Epilepsy :(

[puppiesmum]

Hi everyone, I'm new to this forum and I have a really big problem with my adorable little baby Charlie. He has a really severe case of epilepsy which he was diagnosed with a week before his first birthday in February this year. I would love to hear from people who may have experienced an animal with epilepsy and particularly how they dealt with it.

So here is our story:

We first found out Charlie had epilepsy in Feb this year when in the middle of the night he had a grand mal seizure and fell off the foot of the bed. Him and his brother Oscar are both little foxy/Jack Russel X and sleep in our room when my fiance is away at work. So I freaked out as you could imagine and early the next morning after I shot him off to the vet I was given the sad news. All was okay for a while and we decided not to put him on meds to start with as he was only having one every month or so. April 13th this year (yep - BLACK Friday) he had a really horrible turn and luckily my partner was home and rushed him off to the vet. He was having a couple of fits clustered together and then a couple more a couple of hours later and they were terrifying. So we made the decision to put him on some drugs temporarily and then to see if we could wein him off them. Unfortunately we havent been able to as he has gotten progressively worse and has large clusters of fits. To start with it was once a month and we would have to give him valium tablets to slow him down. One morning he had 10 in about 2 hours before the valium kicked in and he could finally get some rest. Now he is at the point where he will have them about 2 weeks apart and we are having to inject him with his valium as it is the quickest way we can get it into his system, although it doesnt seem to be having the desired effect. This Friday just gone he started early in the morning and hasnt really snapped out of it yet in the way that he hasnt had a grand mal seizure since Saturday afternoon, but he has had very frequent petite mal seizures that knock him off his feet. I'm usually pretty positive about this but seeing him constantly have the petite mal's is really breaking my heart! I am loosing hope

Our vet is wonderful - he no longer charges us for epilepsy related visits (and god knows there have been ALOT) and calls regularly to see how he is going. He is currently trying to get onto a specialist in Brisbane to see what he can suggest we change his meds to. He is currently on Phenobarb and Bromide and it clearly is not working as well as it should.

So really I was just wondering if anyone has had any experience or can relate any stories of what they tried - any home remedies or foods to stay away from. I am getting desperate as I love my baby boys beyond what you could imagine and I really just want my little boy back - they one who spoons with me when Im reading a book and watching tv, and gives me cuddles on command :D

So guys and girls, anything you can give me would be greatly appreciated!

Fingers crossed XX

[frufru]

Puppies mum - there is a thread on here which a lady called Puggles write in - I will bump the thread and you should email Puggles her dog has clusters and she is very knowledgeable. It is called "my dog just had a fit/sizure" and was started by Varicool.

Edited August 21, 2007 by frufru

[~Anne~]

Hi,

Sorry to hear avout the tine you are having with your little one. As frufru said, I too have a dog that clusters. His max has been 10 and he averages around 5 - 6 per cluster over a 45 - 60 minute period. We also give valium but we give it rectally as it can be difficult to give an injection to a dog convulsing. Monte is on pheno and bromide. At the moment we are just over 30 days seizure free and this year has been a good one for us. This has happend before though so we are very timid about rejoicing just yet.

A few questions and suggestions.

*What state/suburb are you in?

*Has your vet taken bloods to check his trough levels? What were they?

*Has your vet ruled out all other possibilites for the seizures? Seizures can be a sign of another illness or disease.

*The valium dose can be repeated if he doesn't stop. It is important you stop the cluster as he could easily go into status. Valium is relatively harmless and it is not easy to overdose.

*It is vitally important you keep him cool during the cluster. His temp will rise dramatically during the convulsions. Use ice packs or put on the air con (no matter how cold you are). After the cluster, give him a little something to eat as his sugar levels will be low and he will be exhausted. It is like running 10 marathons at once. I give a little bit of bread with jam usually.

*Be patient. The meds take months to sort out and to get the correct levels. The trough levels will tell you if you can 'up' the meds more.

*Reduce or eliminate sodium from his diet as this will effect the absorbtion of the drugs.

*Reduce or eliminate grains, preservatives and carbs from his diet.

*Feed raw or natural where possible.

*Give his meds with food to help prevent nausea and to assist with absorbtion.

*His meds MUST be given EVERY 12 HOURS PRECISELY. There is no swaying on this. If they are not given ever 12 hours precisely you will risk the levels dropping in his system of the PB and he will start having seizures.

*A third drug can be added if you are able to stick to an 8 hourly regimine but it is not overly common in Aust. I have also heard of a new drug that has recently been introduced in the US and will be made available here in given time too.

*Accept that the best you can do is manage the condition. Some dogs, no matter what you do will still have seizures but you can slow and reduce them. The drugs given are not a cure but are used to manage the seizures only. Most assume the drugs will stop them and, if they do, great but in many cases it only slows the frequency, number and severity of the seizures.

Edited August 21, 2007 by Puggles

[morgan]

Have a look at this site - lots of useful info -

Epilepsy and Diet

Don't let him have any more vaccinations - not good for epilepsy sufferers or any dog with neurological or auto-immune problems.

efs

Edited August 22, 2007 by morgan

[BlitznBear]

Im so sorry to hear about your little boy, unfortunately I have no experience in this area but I did want to say, dont loose hope and hang in there, I just want to give your little man a big squeeze.

All the best and please keep us updated.

[~Anne~]

Don't let him have any more vaccinations - not good for epilepsy sufferers or any dog with neurological or auto-immune problems.

CRAP!

Ignore Morgan, she has a 'thing' about vaccinations in humans and dogs.

[Staffy-Lover]

my staffy boy has epilepsy and he currently seizures on a fortnightly to montly basis.

Firstly, did you get all the blood tests done to rule out lead poisoning etc. If so......

If you are in NSW then i can recommend an excellent neuro called Dr Childs who is on the north shore, PM me if u want her details.

-Every epi owner i know gets best results when they split the meds into two doses 12 hours apart. The Phenomav in particular is very volatile and needs a 12 hour window.

-Epi meds are also affected by SALT. If your dogs diet changes a lot then the salt levels change which can affect the meds and reduce or increase them in the dogs system. So you need to keep the diet as stable as possible.

-Introduce 2 capsules of fishoil into your dogs diet for assistance with their brain and health (recommended to me by my neuro)

- ALSO, to stop the clusters --- the neuro told me to double dose my dog to stop clusters and he has never had more than two seizures in a row and very rarely even two now. How it works is that as soon as pup can safely swallow give them a full dose of all meds. YOU can do this a few times without overdosing the dog according to my neuro. Speak with your vet to see about your dogs size and how much he thinks is safest. Then at the normal time give the normal meds even if it is only an hour later.

- During seizures keep your dog cool with a wet towel and safe from all. DON'T put anything in his mouth EVER. you can gently wipe the froth away but don't put anything in side.some people put an icepack on their dogs lower back to keep cool

- then as soon as doggy is upright make sure that they have access to water. your dog will also feel very hungry but dont give anything until it is out of danger of seizures.

- when first putting puppy on the meds after about 3 months you need to do a blood test to check the level of meds in the blood. one - to make sure they are in the therapeutic range and don't turn poison. and two - to tell you how much more meds the dog can safely have.

- you might feel doggie is on alot of meds but diff dogs digest them differently so the only way you can tell properly is by the blood test.

if you would like any more help please feel free to pm me. puggles has pretty much said it all...and i also agree with puggles that the comment about vaccinations is crap and unproven, you need to keep your dog as healthy as you can so that no matter how bad the seizure that your dog is healthy enough to cope with it. this includes being disease free with up to date vaccinations.

its scary at first but after a while the panic softens as you learn to handle things a bit more - good luck and keep us up to date

dogs with epi can live excellent lives so don't panic, epilepsy takes a while to work out what works best for your dog. it is a lot of trial and error till you get it right but once you get it under a certain amount of control things are better,

My epi staff is 30kgs of muscle, has a shiny healthy coat, and leads an otherwise natural normal happy life. you must focus on keeping doggy healthy though so their bodies can cope with the stress of the seizures. Best Wishes

Edited August 22, 2007 by Staffy-Lover

[puppiesmum]

Thanks guys for you quick support - I really appreciate it! Frufru, again, thanks for bumping the other thread, it was very interesting to read!

Puggles - here are some of the answers to your questions (it is easier to do it this way )

*What state/suburb are you in? Mackay - QLD.

*Has your vet taken bloods to check his trough levels? What were they? He has had 1 blood test so far to check the med levels in his system, and Im pretty sure they were only about 3 points higher than the minimum theraputic range. So it seems we have room to move.

*Has your vet ruled out all other possibilites for the seizures? Seizures can be a sign of another illness or disease. - Not really. He seems 99% sure that it is epilepsy and I dont really think that we could really get the tests done in Mackay anyway.

*The valium dose can be repeated if he doesn't stop. It is important you stop the cluster as he could easily go into status. Valium is relatively harmless and it is not easy to overdose - I give him up to 2 x 1/2ml injections per hour when he is fitting. When he has his first fit I wait untill it stops and while he is in the still state - it gives me plenty of time to get the needle in. Plus he is only 5kg, so if he came out of it before I managed to get him the needle I could pin him down easily enough. Sometimes (actually most of the time lately) though he will desperately want to pace right after his fits. If I try to hold him down or carry him somewhere where he is safe to walk around without running into walls etc he will cry and scream like he is being murdered! I just ignore that, because he has always been a bit of a vocal sookie la-la and then just put him down where he is safe and he immediately shuts up. Sometimes though in between fits he will seem so out of it and he looks almost like he is blind. He will take 2 steps then pause for a couple of seconds, then 2 more quick little steps and then pause again and that just continues.

*It is vitally important you keep him cool during the cluster. His temp will rise dramatically during the convulsions. Use ice packs or put on the air con (no matter how cold you are). After the cluster, give him a little something to eat as his sugar levels will be low and he will be exhausted. It is like running 10 marathons at once. I give a little bit of bread with jam usually. - I didnt really think about keeping him cool - although it does make perfect sense that he would be absolutely exhausted afterwards! So I think I will keep a little hand towel handy in the freezer for when it next happens (I need everything handy as I am usually alone when he fits). I also read somewhere to give them a tablespoon of honey when you think they are going to have a fit - or during clusters, I guess its the same line of thinking you have with the bread and jam.

*Be patient. The meds take months to sort out and to get the correct levels. The trough levels will tell you if you can 'up' the meds more. - I am usually very patient, but for the 1st time since he has been diagnosed I have really been down about it. I cried 2 nights in a row this week But although his petite mal's are now less frequent it is still concerning so I'm certainly not jumping for joy just yet. The vet called me back today - and Charlie is off to the vet on Friday morning to get a blood test - you know how I said he was a sookie la la, well we have to give him tranquilizers to get the blood out of him. Our first attempt left blood everywhere! He was not a happy camper! So when we get our next lot of tests back we should know what our next step is. The specialist seems to think we should keep him on pheno and bromide but just up the dosage. If not I beleive there are other WAY more expensive options that can work with the pheno and bromide - around $60-$80/month that are quite effective - and in all honesty I would pay that for the rest of his life to keep him safe and healthy. He's not a happy little camper at the moment.

*Reduce or eliminate sodium from his diet as this will effect the absorbtion of the drugs - The only packaged food I feed him is his dry and it is 'advantage' brand from the vet - not cheap either so I wont be too happy if that is super high in sodium! Other than that I cook their dinner once a week - a mixture of premium mince, brown rice, pasta shells and vegtables and they have that each night with a little bit of the dry food - do you guys think this is healthy enough? And for treats I have just started baking them healthy low fat cookies (I love cooking and baking, so this gives me the opportunity to do it without having to be 'forced' into eating it all myself ).

*Reduce or eliminate grains, preservatives and carbs from his diet. - see above - do you think this is okay? Should I be cutting brown rice out of his diet?

*Feed raw or natural where possible. - any suggetions?

*Give his meds with food to help prevent nausea and to assist with absorbtion. - he gets them morning and night - in the morning with a dog buscuit and at night in his dinner.

*His meds MUST be given EVERY 12 HOURS PRECISELY. There is no swaying on this. If they are not given ever 12 hours precisely you will risk the levels dropping in his system of the PB and he will start having seizures. - I am fairly strict - 7am and 7pm, but I will try to be even more careful with the times.

*A third drug can be added if you are able to stick to an 8 hourly regimine but it is not overly common in Aust. I have also heard of a new drug that has recently been introduced in the US and will be made available here in given time too.

*Accept that the best you can do is manage the condition. Some dogs, no matter what you do will still have seizures but you can slow and reduce them. The drugs given are not a cure but are used to manage the seizures only. Most assume the drugs will stop them and, if they do, great but in many cases it only slows the frequency, number and severity of the seizures. - thats our aim. We have accepted that he is not one of those dogs who will grow out of it, or who will have only a couple a year if that. We would be happy with NO clusters - just 1 or 2 max at time every couple of months even.

So my turn to ask a question = how do you all feel about the yearly heartworm needle? I've just had a look and it seems that he first had his cluster of siezures on the 13/4/07 and only on the 3/4/07 he had his first annual heartworm needle. He also had a fit that same night = a few hours after he had his vaccinations on the same date and his heartworm needle. From there he has never really gone back to a single seizure except once.

So has anyone found any links? I do not want to stop him getting his yearly vaccinations as I beleive they are very important for him, but I'm just curious about thoughts on the heartworm needle - it could be a coincidence, but perhaps not. I dont know.

Phew - what a long post - sorry guys

[puppiesmum]

thanks for the tips Staffy-lover. Your right, puggles did cover most of it, but its still good to hear it from other people too.

You know I have been like a robot when it comes to treating Charlie - as soon as he starts fitting I gather what I need to care for him and hold him when he tries to take off running in his last stages of his fit. but it is just so repetetive you know, and heartbreaking sometimes. you think you might be getting somewhere, then Bam, another cluster that goes for an hour up to a couple of days. And he has no signals that he is about to fit... he just does and as soon as he has one we are on high alert because we know he isnt going to stop there.

I cant beleive that website that actually suggested putting something in their mouths - sorry, but I like my fingers on my hands thank you very much Its funny everytime charlie fits and FH is home with me he gets paranoid that Im giong to jam my fingers down charlies throat! And even afterwards I get his blanket and wipe the sides of his mouth and he has a mini panick attack Funny story in all this gloom - Charlie is a real mummy's boy so is always great with me, but the first time FH saw him have a fit he went to pat him and he must have done it just when Charlie was snapping out of it and he bit FH! A lesson learnt hey

As for the double dosing - we do actually do that most of the time. he gets his injection of valium and then another pheno tab. Although I havent been giving him another squirt of bromide - Im not sure if I can to be honest. I'll have to ask the vet when I see him on Friday.

And I will be getting some fish oil to try out on the boys. Who knows hey - I'll try anything!! but what are the benefits of doing so suppossed to be?

Also, one last question for now - what do you feed your epi pups? I'm not too sure what I should be feeding him anymore to be honest.

[puppiesmum]

http://www.advancepetfood.com.au/products/?product=5

This is the dry food I am feeding them now - and Im embarrased to admit it, but I dont know how to read the label to know if it is good enough for him or not

[~Anne~]

Hi,

I also give Monte fish oil tabs after staffy-lover suggested it to me.

My guy is small (he's a Pug and weighs about 9 kilos) so I hold him as much as I can during each seizure as he runs manic too when he clusters. He bumps into things and I worry about his heart and heat so I tend to try and hold him when he finishes each seizure... this is not always easy to do though as he really wants ot pace around like a crazy dog.

I feed Monte the following (not all at once obviously though);

sardines (in water)

beef mince

chicken mince

eggs

pet milk (mixed with water)

veges (just about everything but I limit potatoes)

yoghurt (low fat)

Royal Canin kibble (smal handful once a day)

Nature's Gift canned food sometimes

I can't feed him raw bones as he chokes on them. He will eat anything though and his whole life revolves around food. The meds make him even hungrier.

Staffy-lover and I have the same Neuro for our dogs. It is a shame you are not in Sydney as she is great.

I agree with the comment on it being heartbreaking. I love my guy to death and I hate watching him go through this time and time again.

Vaccinations;

There is some evidence that Pro-heart 6 caused seizures in a small number of dogs. I have decided, after many months of research, to cease the annual injection. I now give the preventative orally every month and I ease up during Winter. I also now only vaccinate every three years. It has now been 2 years since their last vaccs and I will titre test I think before they are due for th enext vaccination in 12 months or so. While I do NOT beleive that vaccinating dogs causes epilepsy, I do believe that evidence is clear that we over vaccinate and the the Pro-heart 6 and 12 causes some adverse reactions that I don't want to risk when there is a perfectly good alternative in the monthly preventative. Why have 12 months worth in their system when you can have only 1 month worth... particularly if something goes wrong.

Doseage - I think if it needs to be upped then do it. Sadly, it is not easy watching them go through the adjustment and Monte does suffer side affect but all in all he is happy. Without the meds at the levels they are he would die. When and if it ever gets to the point where he is not happy then I will re-asses.

[morgan]

Don't let him have any more vaccinations - not good for epilepsy sufferers or any dog with neurological or auto-immune problems.

CRAP!

Ignore Morgan, she has a 'thing' about vaccinations in humans and dogs.

Innocent here - am going on the vet advice given to a couple of people I know with epileptic dogs - they were both told, by different vets, not to ever vaccinate them again. Seeing as I often look after one of the dogs and have to make sure he gets his medication and watch out for seizures his owner has explained the full medical history to me.

Nothing to do with my personal views here!

[~Anne~]

Innocent here - am going on the vet advice given to a couple of people I know with epileptic dogs - they were both told, by different vets, not to ever vaccinate them again. Seeing as I often look after one of the dogs and have to make sure he gets his medication and watch out for seizures his owner has explained the full medical history to me.

Nothing to do with my personal views here!

Kind of funny that I live and breathe epilpesy as do a couple of others like staffy-lover, I read about, research it, live with it, continually talk to people around the world about it, talk to my vets, other vets and a specialist veterinarian who has even published studies and findings on canine epilepsy and yet no-one apart from you has ever said that vaccinating dogs causes epilpesy and that vaccinations should be ceased.

[White Shepherd mom]

Innocent here - am going on the vet advice given to a couple of people I know with epileptic dogs - they were both told, by different vets, not to ever vaccinate them again. Seeing as I often look after one of the dogs and have to make sure he gets his medication and watch out for seizures his owner has explained the full medical history to me.

Nothing to do with my personal views here!

Kind of funny that I live and breathe epilpesy as do a couple of others like staffy-lover, I read about, research it, live with it, continually talk to people around the world about it, talk to my vets, other vets and a specialist veterinarian who has even published studies and findings on canine epilepsy and yet no-one apart from you has ever said that vaccinating dogs causes epilpesy and that vaccinations should be ceased.

hmmm...amazingly I also read in a couple of places that annual vaccines can possibly cause seizures in epi-dogs. It was a while back so I can't remember the sources. I do know that my dogs have not been vaccinated for three years and Casper has been seizure free for two. Perhaps the one has nothing to do with the other? As I plan to vaccinate them every 3 years, they will both be getting their shots this year...and I'm pretty nervous about it!

[~Anne~]

hmmm...amazingly I also read in a couple of places that annual vaccines can possibly cause seizures in epi-dogs.

There is a difference though WSM saying that they can 'possibly' cause them to saying "they DO cause them so don't vaccinate your dog anymore' which is what Morgan originally said.

If vaccinations cause epilepsy, why is the average age of onset of convulsions 2 years? A dog commences vaccinations at 6 weeks.

[White Shepherd mom]

hmmm...amazingly I also read in a couple of places that annual vaccines can possibly cause seizures in epi-dogs.

There is a difference though WSM saying that they can 'possibly' cause them to saying "they DO cause them so don't vaccinate your dog anymore' which is what Morgan originally said.

If vaccinations cause epilepsy, why is the average age of onset of convulsions 2 years? A dog commences vaccinations at 6 weeks.

The way I undestood it from reading about it, and I'm definitely no expert, is that vaccines are strong enough to protect your dog for 2-3 years. By giving them annually, we are overdosing our dogs. Some are not affected, others are. That said, Casper's seizures did not start straight after a vaccination but straight after I changed his heartworm to Sentinel. Again, is that coincidence?

[~Anne~]

The way I undestood it from reading about it, and I'm definitely no expert, is that vaccines are strong enough to protect your dog for 2-3 years. By giving them annually, we are overdosing our dogs. Some are not affected, others are. That said, Casper's seizures did not start straight after a vaccination but straight after I changed his heartworm to Sentinel. Again, is that coincidence?

I have no idea if it coincidence or not.

I think I already posted saying that I do believe that we are overdosing our dogs on vaccinations and I also stated that I have ceased the yearly h/w vaccine as I do think there is a risk but, again, this is different to saying not to vaccinate at all or not togive heartworm preventatives at all. *shrugs*

I don't think a newbie should be given the advice to stop vaccinating their dog.

[White Shepherd mom]

I think I already posted saying that I do believe that we are overdosing our dogs on vaccinations and I also stated that I have ceased the yearly h/w vaccine as I do think there is a risk but, again, this is different to saying not to vaccinate at all or not togive heartworm preventatives at all. *shrugs*

I don't think a newbie should be given the advice to stop vaccinating their dog.

I would certainly never tell anyone not to give heartworm meds. I now have the darlings on Heartgard and I've had no problems. I also believe in vaccinating, just less frequently. Still makes me nervous to do with the epi though.

[morgan]

hmmm...amazingly I also read in a couple of places that annual vaccines can possibly cause seizures in epi-dogs.

There is a difference though WSM saying that they can 'possibly' cause them to saying "they DO cause them so don't vaccinate your dog anymore' which is what Morgan originally said.

If vaccinations cause epilepsy, why is the average age of onset of convulsions 2 years? A dog commences vaccinations at 6 weeks.

Where have I said in this thread anything whatsoever about possible causes of epilepsy?

All I did was quote the advice of two different vets and offer a link with comprehensive info on a diet to assist with treatment of epilepsy

[Cavandra]

There is currently a thread going whereby a lady has all her 5 dogs begin seizures on the same day. They started 21 days after their Vaccinations which included Lepto. It goes on to recommend Fish oil........

http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?showtopic=111094

I am another one against over vaccinating, and due to virtually every site I have ever looked at saying that it can cause encephalitis, and seizures are a symptom of that, then it most definately is a cause of seizures IMO.

Another condition that can causes seizures is Syringiomyelia (Arnold Chiari Sydnrome) which might interest Puggles as Pugs are one of the 16 Breeds affected.

For those looking at minimising their heartworm meds, Dr Jean Dodds recommends one of our monthly heartworm medications (ie does heartwom ONLY), every 45 days, she said it is not necessary to heartworm every 30 days.