Sin Bin

[Erny]

I'm not sure why it says otherwise LC, but your last few quotes are actually from Pax, not Poodlesplus.

There's been a few quirky things happening in relation to quotes, or at least when quotes are involved, I notice.

With one of my posts I returned to "edit", changed my mind and cancelled the "edit" and noticed that a few para's had been changed to italics. Went back in to "edit", cancelled again without making any changes ..... and text was back to its normal and original state.

Gremlins? :D

Edited August 20, 2007 by Erny

[haven]

Fess up, who's been feeding em after midnight?

:D

Edited August 20, 2007 by haven

[Lou Castle]

I'm not sure why it says otherwise LC, but your last few quotes are actually from Pax, not Poodlesplus.

It says otherwise because I'm not fully awake yet and goofed up. Thanks for the slap.

It's been fixed.

[poodlesplus]

I go the deal. I accept democratic decisions. I wont make any more naughty comments about things I know about. More important to tow the party line. What these people said was wrong. It was equivalent to saying that dogs have tails out of their mouths. How do you debate with that?? The mood was so adverse that all I could do was state that it was wrong. I can support my arguement, but I can't deal with people who do not even bother doing the most basic research and have the cheek to think they have. i can not get degrees for them. I can not condense my experience and knowledge on to a tight space. Despite that

Here is where the legend of least resistance comes from (I think)

When a lightning strike happens, a path gets formed where more elctricity flows than elsewhere. This causes ionisation to form which is associated with permanent cell chnages. in fact a form of carbon can be formed . This is obviously a path of very much least resistance.

When an e collar is fitted and used, ionisation does not form (we sure as hell don't want that) so there are many paths that may be made from terminal to terminal. There is a minimum path, but there are many paths with equivalent resistance.

Yes I am heavily R+, but accept the right of people to train there dogs as they see fit within broadly acceptable parameters. I am not a ban it type person. Read my original statement again .

Now as my contribution is not required , i have listened to the posts ((fair enough this is democracy) I will leave you to it.

[Erny]

... I can't deal with people who do not even bother doing the most basic research ...

I tried. Again - I asked you to return to your first post in the other thread and mine which followed. I made no assumptions on me having any great knowledge or understanding of electricity and become especially lost when 'electrical jargon' is used when it is being spoken of. (I do know that the stimulation from an electric fence is felt with much more unpleasantry than that of an e-collar though.) Then study your followed response ..... that's where your aggression and personal attacks began.

And I know so little about it as to not being able to ascertain that you are as good as you continuously profess to be. If you are so good and know such much though, how come you are so defensive and aggressive when someone doesn't merely accept what you say? Were you waiting for the :D emoticon? They don't come unless you've earnt them.

...i have listened to the posts ((fair enough this is democracy)

So where's the apology? Not only for your personal attacks on others in that 'other' thread, but also here, where you've created a special thread to falsely accuse others of the 'crime' that you yourself committed.

And how come you have multiple identities?

I will leave you to it.

Is this your standard closing?

Edited August 20, 2007 by Erny

[jesomil]

And how come you have multiple identities?

Can you please answer this one?

[Lou Castle]

I can support my argument

You were asked to support your statements with scientific studies repeatedly. You never did.

but I can't deal with people who do not even bother doing the most basic research

You were asked to support your statements with scientific studies repeatedly. You never did. (Why does this sound familiar?) LOL.

i can not get degrees for them. I can not condense my experience and knowledge on to a tight space.

We don't need any more of your experience and knowledge. We need scientific studies that support your statements. You've not supplied any. (I'm having a déjà vu now).

When an e collar is fitted and used, ionisation does not form (we sure as hell don't want that) so there are many paths that may be made from terminal to terminal. There is a minimum path, but there are many paths with equivalent resistance.

Please supply a scientific study to support your statement. And while you're getting that, please show us a study that shows that even if you're completely right, it makes some difference.

You've mentioned "long term damage" And have consistently refused to supply any support for those comments.

Now as my contribution is not required , i have listened to the posts ((fair enough this is democracy) I will leave you to it.

You have also made this comment before only to show up again and again.

Nothing has changed. You've done the same thing here as in the original topic. You made many claims and been asked to supply support for them. Again, you've failed to do so. Instead you DEMAND that we accept your expertise. Sorry ain't gonna happen without the support that's been requested over and over.

[MonElite]

I dont understand one thing. Why do people that have never used a tool (whatever it might be) voice so many opinions about it, sounding as if they are experts in the field, when they are experts in some other field.

[poodlesplus]

Erny

I attacked the ideas not you. For just one example the idea that any collar manufacter would actually make a product where the open circuit voltage is so high that arcing would occur is stupid.

You went at me on the front foot so to speak . You didn't ask questions, you didn't seek to clarify. It is pretty hard to discuss in this enviroment. I could have made up some pictures to show you what i was on about ,but quite frankly I don't feel like being dragged over the coals by people who present as if they know it all anyway. Your original response was so hostile and just plain wrong, I couldn't see that doing it would really be of benefit to any one. It as if one of your lower class students who knows stuff all about dogs came at you.telling you how to handle dogs, You would be a bit bewildered, and wouldn't know where to start. It was a bit like that for me.I am as good as a claim to be, I am probably a little better. If you care to email me I am quite happy to provide credentials in a way that protects my identity.I also expcet you to reply with your credentials too...

The convention in the professional world is that ideas are up for grabs, not peoples qualls, humanity, laughter at their profession. I just have to take it that several of you don't operate in a professional world as your behaviour wasn't so.

I will very occassionally contribute. but I will abide by the forums formal and imformal rules. I realise that part of the informal rules are that there isn't really a lot of debate in a few areas, just people getting a bit hot under the collar huffing and puffing and spreading urban legends, who are pretty fragile on some of the technical details. I will leave these areas alone as i like a nice quiet life, and my precious time then gets detracted from training my dogs.

I mean, it is pretty funny when the engineer leaves a discussion on some electrical details, and a couple of electrical neophytes carry on as if the know it all. I haven't a clue what this actually means, but it has stuff all to do about electricity. I personally think it is a reflection of a wider malaise in society that means that there are actually stuff all electrical engineers left,it has become a low status profession, and there is serious concern as to how to train enough engineers to keep existing plant going, let alone develop further "green" infrastructure.

As for apologies, I would see you as a professional if you actually read what I have written, came back and said, look i am sorry, you are right on the elctrical bits, now lets get on with it. Instead you just seem to be bitcing away. Good on ya.

There was some unfortunate comments made about my training methds.(Sort of my method or else) I do train in a mixed method club, as well as a R+ club. I came up with fairly trad training, it is not new to me. I don't impose my methods I just live for the day when my ability to practice my methods is not continously encroached on, or met with a

[MonElite]

I just have to take it that several of you don't operate in a professional world as your behaviour wasn't so.

I dont know what you call a professional world but I work for a Australia wide milti million dollar company, and in my working day I am equiped with a hard drive, monitor, keyboard and mouse.

Or did you mean the professional world where the deals are done under the tables, backstabbing is a daily pass time, and the rules are - you scratch your back Ill scratch yours" ?

I will abide by the forums formal and imformal rules. I realise that part of the informal rules are that there isn't really a lot of debate in a few areas, just people getting a bit hot under the collar huffing and puffing and spreading urban legends, who are pretty fragile on some of the technical details. I will leave these areas alone as i like a nice quiet life, and my precious time then gets detracted from training my dogs.

Any time you feel like stuff is getting out of hand feel free to press that report button, or if a particular person annoys you there is an option to put them on ignore.

But I would like to know what did you mean aobut people spreading urban legends. And if you say you will leave those areas alone, why didnt you yet?

I personally think it is a reflection of a wider malaise in society that means that there are actually stuff all electrical engineers left,it has become a low status profession, and there is serious concern as to how to train enough engineers to keep existing plant going, let alone develop further "green" infrastructure.

That is an interesting point you make, only yesterday I have attended a meeting where there was talk aobut sustainable living, human needs and wants and "benefits" of developement. Very interesting point was made that we tend to use one reseource to produce another.

As for apologies, I would see you as a professional if you actually read what I have written, came back and said, look i am sorry, you are right on the elctrical bits, now lets get on with it. Instead you just seem to be bitcing away. Good on ya.

Id like to learn form you about effect of mobile phones, high voltage powerlines, wireless technology at home on humans.

But perhaps not in this thread, as this one was your bitching away.

Make more posts, you will than get access to off topics section and Ill be all ears about the electricity, mobiles, etc.

[Kavik]

There are many aspects of things I don't understand and yet can use quite well without knowing how they work (computers for instance :D ). So this is how I classify tools such as ecollars etc. I have no clue about how electricity works (have no problem admitting that!) - my interest (as it is with all tools/methods) is how does it affect the DOG.

What is the method that people use with ecollars, how does it work, why does it work, how can you tell the dog feels the stim, what does the stim feel like to us, how can it be combined with other methods/tools, advantages/disadvantages of using one, are some dogs more suited than others to its use? These questions and more can really only be answered by observation and experience - someone showing you how it works and working through the steps. These are all practical things where knowing all the theory in the world is not going to help you. The same in many other aspects of dog training, including clicker training, drive training etc

While obviously the use of electricity is where the whole debate lies in the use of ecollars, and is where people get squeamish about using them (myself included), the exact way electricity works is IMO not all that relevant (sorry!) to dog training.

[Guest rhapsodical78]

Anyone have a link to the original post?

[MrsD]

Anyone have a link to the original post?

This thread Rhaps - get a drink & make yourself comfortable, it's quite long :D .

Treating anxiety/fear aggression

Edited to fix the link

Edited August 21, 2007 by MrsD

[Guest rhapsodical78]

Anyone have a link to the original post?

This thread Rhaps - get a drink & make yourself comfortable, it's quite long :D .

Treating anxiety/fear aggression

Edited to fix the link

Haha. I'm pulling up my jason recliner.

[MonElite]

in regards to what this thread is about you can start reading on page 5 of that other thread.

[Kavik]

These are issues that I think are relevant as to whether ecollars should be used

* Is there stress felt by dog while using ecollar that is not present when using other methods/tools

* Does dog shut down when ecollar is used

* Possibilities of transference (not sure if that is the right term) - dog thinking stim coming from something else

* Is dog working happily with the ecollar on

These all have to do with how the dog perceives the ecollar and the stim

[jesomil]

my interest (as it is with all tools/methods) is how does it affect the DOG.

What is the method that people use with ecollars, how does it work, why does it work, how can you tell the dog feels the stim, what does the stim feel like to us, how can it be combined with other methods/tools, advantages/disadvantages of using one, are some dogs more suited than others to its use? These questions and more can really only be answered by observation and experience - someone showing you how it works and working through the steps. These are all practical things where knowing all the theory in the world is not going to help you. The same in many other aspects of dog training, including clicker training, drive training etc

While obviously the use of electricity is where the whole debate lies in the use of ecollars, and is where people get squeamish about using them (myself included), the exact way electricity works is IMO not all that relevant (sorry!) to dog training.

Great points Kavik!!!

[Guest rhapsodical78]

in regards to what this thread is about you can start reading on page 5 of that other thread.

Thanks, I discovered that!

[Erny]

Erny I attacked the ideas not you.

Not true.

Your original response was so hostile ...

I could bring up a number of comments you've made throughout your post here that are questionable, but I'll keep it simple by just asking you to point out to me, in my first response to yours (post #77), where I was "so hostile" ? :D

Edited August 21, 2007 by Erny

[Lou Castle]

For just one example the idea that any collar manufacter would actually make a product where the open circuit voltage is so high that arcing would occur is stupid.

Odd but I don't recall anyone saying that any manufacturer did that. Perhaps you can show us the post?

Poodlesplus wrote: It as if one of your lower class students who knows stuff all about dogs came at you.telling you how to handle dogs, You would be a bit bewildered, and wouldn't know where to start. It was a bit like that for me.

I'm afraid that you've got this backwards. I've been using Ecollars for nearly two decades. There are some others here that have been using them for quite some time, some perhaps longer than me. (Some perhaps a LOT longer than me)! and then along you come spouting theory, telling us how bad Ecollars are and that we know nothing of them.

Poodlesplus wrote: I am as good as a claim to be, I am probably a little better.

No ego problems there! ROFL.

Poodlesplus wrote: If you care to email me I am quite happy to provide credentials in a way that protects my identity.

Why do you need to protect your identify? Are you a spy and if your true identity was revealed it could seal the fate of the free world? (If you are, say, "No.")

Poodlesplus wrote: I also expcet you to reply with your credentials too.

Mine are on my website.

Poodlesplus wrote: laughter at their profession.

You've said this several times. Each time we've denied that it's happened and you've been invited to show us the post where anyone has made fun of your profession. Each time you've failed to do so. Now you're just whining. No one has made fun of your profession.

Poodlesplus wrote: I will very occassionally contribute.

I wonder why anyone feels the need to tell us this? If you want to contribute do so. If you don't, then don't.

Poodlesplus wrote: but I will abide by the forums formal and imformal rules.

As will the rest of us. Again, I wonder why you feel the need to tell us this?

Poodlesplus wrote: As for apologies, I would see you as a professional if you actually read what I have written, came back and said, look i am sorry, you are right on the elctrical bits, now lets get on with it. Instead you just seem to be bitcing away. Good on ya.

I've proposed at least TWICE now the following situation.

BUT let's assume that you're completely, 100% right and that I'm completely, 100% wrong about this. Now, please show us some scientific study that shows that it makes some difference in the training or has some impact on the dogs.

I've not seen any response from you.

Poodlesplus wrote: I just live for the day when my ability to practice my methods is not continously encroached on, or met with a

Met with a ?????????