Hip Scores

[redapple]

This a question that has probably been discussed elsewhere, but I would love to hear peoples opinions and rationales behind hip scores.

Many of the medium to large size breeds, think Shepherds, Labs, Rotties, Pointers and so on have large litters, 6 - 10 at a time being normal. Generally it seems that only a minority, 2 or 3 in most litters will be hip and elbow scored. How useful to the breeder and to people who may wish to use these progeny is the score; if less than 50% of the offsprings hip status is known?

While the scored dogs may have great hips, the majority which weren't scored may be atrocious. Indicating that the low scoring ones could be carrying genes which cause poor hips. Conversely, if only one pup out of 10 is scored and he has a really bad score of say 40, the assumption is that the rest could be similar, while it is possible they all have perfect 0 0 hips.

I suppose I'm querying some dog owners/breeders who get really excited about 0 0 hip scores for their dogs. Does this mean anything if the dog's litter siblings scores aren't displayed alongside it to give people an idea on what's in the family?

[Guest Dianne]

redapple,

It is sometimes not possible to score a whole litter for many reasons. The most we have ever managed to score from one litter was 4 from 6, [in fact 1 was done twice once here before leaving the country and once in U.K.].

redapple "I suppose I'm querying some dog owners/breeders who get really excited about 0 0 hip scores for their dogs. Does this mean anything if the dog's litter siblings scores aren't displayed alongside it to give people an idea on what's in the family?"

H.D. is Polygenic, so even if you have dogs that show/score[phenotype] low - unless you can do D.N.A. testing it is not possible to ensure a future score. it does however show to the public, that you are doing all you can with the tests and dogs you have available.

ETA...distance and compliance from owners is sometimes the reason, others may have different responses I am sure.

Cheers,

Dianne

Edited August 20, 2007 by Dianne

[Miranda]

I agree that in a perfect world all siblings should be scored, but unfortunately it just isn't possible, very few puppy buyers will bother to have their desexed pets hip and/or elbow scored and I can certainly understand that, why would they pay for an expensive and (in their eyes) unnecessary procedure that appears to be of no benefit to their dog. If I was extremely well off I would quite happily pay for all my puppies to be checked, but I'm not and I think you'll find that even if breeders did pay, many puppy buyers still wouldn't have it done, putting your dog under a GA for an x-ray when the dog appears to be perfectly sound and healthy wouldn't be a risk a lot of owners would be prepared to take.

However we do the best we can and there is no doubt that a dog with good hips that comes from parents who had good hips and had grandparents with good hips is a much better breeding proposition than a dog of unknown hip status. In my breed hips have improved enormously since the 70's when we had a small gene pool and hip scoring wasn't the norm. These days in Australia I think I can safely say that all breeding stock is scored prior to breeding and hips are generally good. I have usually found that hip scores are generally between a certain range amongst those siblings that are scored, you may get a score of 1/2, another may be 2/3 and then you'll sometimes get a 6/6 or a 3/7, but in my experience having one sibling with an extremely low score, say 1/2 and another sibling with a very high score, say 12/12 is very unusual, I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but it certainly isn't common. Of course when we get our 1/1 scores back we're excited and no we don't know that there isn't a sibling out there that has a score of 40, but chances are that if there was we'd hear about it because the dog would probably be showing symptoms, the owners would go to the vet and then they usually contact the breeder. I always ask my puppy buyers to contact me if there are any problems with their puppy, whether they be behavioural or physical.

Of course the system isn't perfect, but it's definitely a step in the right direction and as I've said it seems to work because hip scores in my breed have improved enormously since scoring became an accepted and vital procedure for all breeding stock. I actually x-ray all my dogs regardless of whether or not they are bred from, I currently have a dog here who has never been bred, but I have had him hip and elbow scored anyway.

Of course I can only speak for my breed, but IMO hip scoring is a very positive thing and in the long term I have no doubt that it's a valuable tool that helps us to breed happier and healthier dogs.

[Debbi]

Hi Redapple,

I might be a little off track here, but why is it that you only refer to medium to large breed dogs in your question on hip scoring?

Any dog that has a score over 0/0 essentially has radiographic "hip dysplasia", however there is a difference between radiogaphic hip dysplasic and visual hip dysplasia. DONT get me wrong, I am not adverse to the hip scoring program, but a) believe it must be put into prospective, and b) believe it is not limited to "medium to large breed dogs", as clearly shown by the fact that as examples

clumber spaniels, cavalier king charles , Welsh springer spaniels have all quite high "median ranges".

Only my humble opinion, and sorry to go off track a little

Debbi

[Joann]

We have been hip scoring since Dr Willis opened the scoring system to breeds other than GSD's - about 1982 I think. We have over the years had very positive outcomes and have improved the overall scores. We have found that when 2 or more dogs from a litter are scored they appear to be in the same 'range' whether good or bad.

Currently 3 from one litter: 3:3, 0:0, 1:2. all with 0:0 elbows. Have in the past also had a litter with 2 with high scores plus 1 with a moderate score (both parents were removed from our breeding programme). So yes although not all puppies in a litter are xrayed it is a good indication of the overall breeding programme.

Unfortunatly HD & ED are polygenetic so unlike simple recesive genes no DNA tests are (and probably never will be) available.

We have to go with the tools we have but always keeping in mind that hips and elbows are are only a part of an overall breeding programme, type and temperament are also important.

[cassie]

SOME breeders do make sure all their pups are scored, probably not many, but SOME do. My Bernese breeder for instance. It was in my contract with her (when I first bought Zephyr) that I would have him hip-scored - at my own cost - after he was 12 months old. It was also stated in the contract that she could use him as a stud dog if, when he matured, she thought him suitable. It turned out she didn't need him as a stud, so when he was 2 years old, I had him desexed, and at the same time, hip-scored. That way he didn't need two seperate GA's, therefore less risk. :D

I was totally happy with this arrangement, and didn't mind paying for the procedure one bit. (It wasn't THAT much more, considering he was already under GA for desexing.) And when his results came back (0:2) I was thrilled! In my opinion it was a small price to pay for peace of mind that he is *unlikely* (touch wood!) to have problems with his hips later on, especially since he is one of those breeds that can, and many typically do, have terrible hips. Then again, I was happy to pay for it all because I knew and had read up a lot about HD in my breed, and the importance of screening dogs before breeding from them, (even though he wasn't bred from in the end). But had I not known much, or anything about it, as I'm sure many people don't, I too may have seen it as unnecessary. That is probably half the reason that breeders find it difficult for some/most puppy buyers to have their dogs scored, as the puppy buyers just don't get it. JMHO.

Edited August 22, 2007 by cassie the bernese lover

[Poodle wrangler]

For a pet owner, hip scoring is quite expensive. I just had XRays done under general anaesthetic (knees) and it was about $240. Waiting until desexing is a great idea, but in my area, to wait until 12 months+ to desex means paying about $100 extra to register the dog with council. I think it's a lot to ask when the information is primarily for the breeder, with risk of death (however slim) of general anaesthetic to the dog.

I'd be happy for the dog to have a thorough physical examination with the vet (wouldn't more severe hip dysplasia be apparent with this?) and would inform the breeder if any signs of problems became apparent as the dog got older.

[MissMonaro]

but in my experience having one sibling with an extremely low score, say 1/2 and another sibling with a very high score, say 12/12 is very unusual, I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but it certainly isn't common

Just on this note.......2 pups from same litter......one scored 3:3 hips...the other a 9:11 hip score.

Mother 1:2 hips and Father 0:3 hips.

However, 2nd dog weighed in at 40 kg at 9 months of age.

This is where you ponder the question of environmental issues ....and what effects did this possibly have on the hip score.

[bridgie_cat]

it is a sample. simple statistics - it will not necessarily be the true result - but it will be an indication of what is likely to be the true result - the larger the sample (ie more dogs tested) the more accurate the estimation will be as to the overall hip quality of the family.

Equally, if you tested 2 pups from a litter and have 2 very similar hip scores as oposed to one very low and one very high that even out to the same as the two similar ones, then statistically you have a better estimation with the 2 similar ones - with a larger range/more variation within a sample (one high, one low), you are less likely to be seeing a true representation of the population...

Certainly it is a hell of a lot better than not testing any of them!

[Poodle wrangler]

This is really interesting.

I was under the impression that it was the dam and sires hip scores that were most important, but some suggest that better results are obtained by breeding dogs with a good 'family history' of hip scores, compared with a dog with excellent hips, but with poorer results overall among siblings. Very interesting!!! http://www.faqs.org/faqs/dogs-faq/medical-info/part2/

Having seen our 9 month old pup in pain and limping with luxating patellas, I'd be keen to avoid any skeletal problems as far as possible!

I was shocked how distressed it made me feel to see our dog in pain! (Has been investigated with vet + XRays and surgery not recommended at this stage).