Dumbell

[BC]

After 3 months Cooper is now retrieving the dumbell on the flat :rolleyes:

My biggest hurdle was getting him to take it in the first place.

When he was 1, I was advised at class to shove it in his mouth and force him to take it. Cooper being the sensitive soul, gave me the big finger and sulked, and I was told off the trainers their dogs took at least 12 months to teach using this method. This was not the answer for me, as I much rather my dog do something cos he wants to, not cos he has to.

I left it alone for a couple of years but had to get my bum into gear when I was at trialling level.

The way I got him to take it was to buy another dumbell, and put it in his toy box. One day he just picked it out of all the other toys and started throwing it around progress.

Since then, he has come in leaps and bounds. He started trying to grab it off me within the week. He started holding it within the next 2 weeks with some good food bribes held above his nose. We then moved to grabbing it below face level and then holding it, then grabbing it off the ground and holding, and then picking it up off the ground.

I had not done much dumbell work with him in the last month, but at training I threw the dumbell and he thought he might like to run and grab it and bring it back. WOW WOW WOW.

He now loves his dumbell that much, after I have thrown it, and then say fetch, he runs that fast he runs past it, does a burn out, and brings it back with the most beautiful front. I know I will most likely lose a point for an untidy retrieve, but hey, he loves it and I'm so proud.

I now know with the right methods, this can be taught within a couple of months solid work.

After that long winded story, I'm interested in how you have taugh dumbell.

[jesomil]

I am sure there is a fancy name for this but i dont know it so will just describe it.

I put the dumbell on the ground and waited for the dog to look at it. When he did, i said yes and rewarded.

Then i waited for a nose touch, said yes and rewarded.

Over several short training sessions i upped what i wanted so i rewarded a nose touch, then a pick up etc etc and kept asking for more and rewarding till i got the whole retrieve happening.

It is such a great way of teaching it because the dog is practically begging you to say fetch in the end. They love it.

[BC]

It is such a great way of teaching it because the dog is practically begging you to say fetch in the end. They love it.

I just love seeing a happy dog work !!!! They might do some silly things sometimes, but they're having fun....

[Arya]

I agree, play with the dumbell. I have heard others say keep it for work only and no play. What a disincentive for the dog to do dumbell! Play with it and have some fun. Who cares if they miss the odd formal finish in a trial? Doesn't happen anyway if you're careful and ask for a formal finish now and again. A tip to increase drive to run out and retrieve the dumbell for those who train in play/prey drive: stick your dog's favourite throw toy or ball or hose in your pocket. Throw the dumbell, when dog brings back don't do formal finish, just throw the toy/prey item after taking the dumbell. Keep it informal. This builds drive REALLY fast. Just chuck a formal one in with a nice finish now and again. It's a load of fun for you too :rolleyes:

[bridgie_cat]

our club does the forced method - and Lana being the slightly more outgoing, headstrong sheltie that she is would PROBABLY put up with this - but it would not be a happy training for either of us and I would much rather that she was keen to do it than that she did it because I said so...

thus we are just starting now with the clicker training - dont technically own a dumbell yet but got my first set of scent items the other week and am rotating her on these things (ie metal, wood, leather) just getting her to grab them and hopefully will build time as she builds confidence with the exercise...

[BC]

our club does the forced method - and Lana being the slightly more outgoing, headstrong sheltie that she is would PROBABLY put up with this - but it would not be a happy training for either of us and I would much rather that she was keen to do it than that she did it because I said so...

thus we are just starting now with the clicker training - dont technically own a dumbell yet but got my first set of scent items the other week and am rotating her on these things (ie metal, wood, leather) just getting her to grab them and hopefully will build time as she builds confidence with the exercise...

Good luck. It makes you feel so good when they finally piece it all together, and they actually like it.

Never in a million years would I think Cooper would actually enjoy it.

[dogdude]

As most people know, I teach FR.

There is a few comments suggesting that this method produces a dog that is doing something that it "has to", and dosn't enjoy it in the slightest. That will all depend on how you structure the rest of your training. Those who have seen my dog retreive will tell you that it is probably his favourite exercise.

Whatever method that you use, you should not use the "game of dumbell" as the driving force behind a retreive. Otherwise, you won't have a "retreive", just a game of fetch. I am not saying that you cant play with it outside formal training, but I don't.

During a trial, the dog "has to" retreive. Personally, I wouldn't spend a couple of hundred bucks on a trialling weekend only for my dog to "not be feeling very playfull".

These trainers are nearly always shown up under moderate to high distraction.

I have trained one dog using the marker method, but I found it just took far too long compared to FR to get it at a reliable stage. Even then, I still was never 100% confident. Oscar took one week to have a moderately proofed retreive, another week till I would be confident enough to of had it at basic trial standard, one more week till his retreive matched the mental picture I was after (speed and accuracy, lack of mouthing etc) Oscar is quite soft, so he was very easy to teach.

Many people think that a hard dog is more suited to FR, but I find the opposite. When I tried it on my BT, he just looked at me and smiled (was using considerable force) went on to train him with marker method instead.

My crossbred on the other hand, I only needed to suggest gently touching his ear, and he complied instantly. Oscar was the same.

Using the ear pinch method is IMO less uncomfortable for a dog than a rip on a checkchain. It is done on the cartlidge part, and no "pulling" whatsoever is involved. I have heard barbaric stories of pliers etc but never seen it. Some trainers have been known to use a "hang dog" method with checkchain as well, but I think a dog that required that wouldn't be much fun to train, and I definately would not go to that extreme.

So, in summary, I mainly use FR because it gets really fast results, but if the method does not suit the dog, I will use marker or clicker.

[PAX]

I am sure there is a fancy name for this but i dont know it so will just describe it.

Free shaping. :rolleyes:

[helen]

I taught Bella how to hold the dumbell (ie in the middle rather than by the end) using a clicker and holding the dumbell so she couldn't take it from the side.

Once she knew where to hold it I just started playing with it and throwing it like a fun game with a toy and it worked brilliantly. The first time we tried the retrieve over a jump we used a solid jump, she went over grabbed it and like a pro just came back over the jump with it, she learnt all this very quickly and really enjoys it. I would never use a force retrieve (and yes I do mean never, after the first time I was taught the force retrieve, like you turning a dog off taking anything at all in its mouth).

Edited August 16, 2007 by helen

[poodlesplus]

I would never use a force retrieve (and yes I do mean never, after the first time I was taught the force retrieve, like you turning a dog off taking anything at all in its mouth).

That is my position to! I have an older Lab who I taught by just tidying up what he already did. I have never ever had a failed retrieve from him in any trial .He has trialled a fair bit.In fact even at his advanced age (13 1/2) he managed to get TDX recently. (That gives my identity away!).

I also have a younger poodle who is about to trial in obedience.She already has TD and could have gone further this season, but I needed to focus on my older dog. She was taught with a hybrid method,(all R+) as i actually taught her SD first. I have worked away on building her retrieve drive to the point where I have to restrain her form retrieving other dogs dumbells. I cannot find data to support the assertion that forced retrieves actually produce a more reliable retrieve . I think that it is often the human end that believes this. May be WE think that unless I have compulsion I might not do something that could be less than pleasurable. We put this on to the dog and use compulsion. Many dogs will do things that they find less than pleasurable for some kind of reward at the end.

I have mentioned tracking because retrieving and tracking are probably different branches of prey drive. My poodle wanted to chase but not come back, my Lab wanted to do both. They both love tracking. Like all drives, there are many ways of satisfying them. This gives the hook as to how train your dog if the drive exists.

There are many ways of teaching retrieves in the R+ framework and IMHO they are dog dependent and could fill a book.

I have been browsing only for a while as I am very busy, but I couldn't let this one go by. I generally find the concept of a forced retreive "being more reliable" logically inconsistent with what we know about learning theory.

[Silvawilow]

I'm fairly new to dog training and I was having the some problems in the begining with my girl Kira in getting her to hold it. She'd wait, zoom out fetch it, bring it back, sit in front of me and spit it out on my feet. My club use forced method too and Kira told me where to put the dumbell when I tried that method on her :rolleyes:

After a couple of months of trying to force her I bought a squeeky dumbell which I only used in training (my dog is OTT, very high energy, no food/toy motivation required, all she needs is a big "yesss good dog" and she thinks she's itandabit). I turned it into a kinda game: sit, wait, fetch, hold and if she held it then I'd throw it again if not I'd turn my back, game over.

After about 2 sessions of this Kira got it and she loves the dumbell part of obedience!

[leopuppy04]

I agree, play with the dumbell. I have heard others say keep it for work only and no play. What a disincentive for the dog to do dumbell! Play with it and have some fun. Who cares if they miss the odd formal finish in a trial? Doesn't happen anyway if you're careful and ask for a formal finish now and again. A tip to increase drive to run out and retrieve the dumbell for those who train in play/prey drive: stick your dog's favourite throw toy or ball or hose in your pocket. Throw the dumbell, when dog brings back don't do formal finish, just throw the toy/prey item after taking the dumbell. Keep it informal. This builds drive REALLY fast. Just chuck a formal one in with a nice finish now and again. It's a load of fun for you too :rolleyes:

Thanks Arya - that is an excellent suggestion and funnily enough - we are having difficulty with the 'send out'.... not sure if I can do this exactly as as soon as you throw another toy - he'll drop it!

I taught it pretty much the way Jesomil did- although got stuck to move from 'placing' mouth on D/b to 'holding' - the most 'force' I used was to gently hold his mouth shut and reward heavily for it. It hasn't taken me long to get to the full retrieve, but from me being a novice trainer and missing key steps initially - we always seem to hunt up one problem or other. Plus - Leo's attitude is 'if it's dead - why chase it?!"

With Kinta i'm teaching as per Jesomil again but with a few 'play retrieves' also to build up the fun and excitement of the object etc

[MrsD]

As most people know, I teach FR.

There is a few comments suggesting that this method produces a dog that is doing something that it "has to", and dosn't enjoy it in the slightest. That will all depend on how you structure the rest of your training. Those who have seen my dog retreive will tell you that it is probably his favourite exercise.

I teach the FR too, & my dogs have always been super keen to work with the dumbell, they absolutely love it.

The only difference with me from some descriptions I've found of the FR is that I dont use an ear pinch to make the dog open its mouth to take the dumbell in the first place, I manually open their mouth & put it in.

[poodlesplus]

One thing that really seems to work to reduce mouthing etc is to play tug with the dumb bell and reward when a firm hold is given. A dog can't hold firmly and mouth all at the same time.

Encouraging focus during the front seems to reduce mouthing too.

I also found that the standard dumb bell position isn't a good thing for poodles. As they have long noses the dumbell hold just behind the incisors is uncomfortable for them and can encourage a weak hold. Also the dumb bell acts as more of a lever here which can cause high jump problems.I have encouraged my poodle to hold further back in the mouth which gives her more confidence over the high jump. It apparently looks pretty cute too, which might help us scavenge an extra point or two.

For my lab, I would never insult him with anything other than food for a really good retrieve. For my poodle, she gets a choice, food, or chuckit. Mostly the chuckit wins.I am entirely pragamtic about rewards. Whatever gets the best performance wins.

[dogdude]

Hmm, I find it quite funny that the people that are so against the FR have 1)never used it, and 2) own retreiving breeds. I would like to see you train a British Bulldog with the same methods.

Helen, why does FR put a dog off having anything in its mouth? Never had a problem.

I am yet to attend a club in Melbourne that actually teaches step by step how to do any type of retreive. They often tell you how to force a dog to hold it, then you are expected to go away to fill in the blanks. I bet I could go back to my old club on Sunday and find the same people that still have a dog that will not retreive.

I am happy to use whatever method suits the dog, but FR is my first choice. The forced part of it is used in all for about a week. I then use food drive as motivation. The dog does not require further use of the ear pinch.

Like any type of aversive training, the method is only as harsh as the trainer.

[Arya]

As most people know, I teach FR.

There is a few comments suggesting that this method produces a dog that is doing something that it "has to", and dosn't enjoy it in the slightest. That will all depend on how you structure the rest of your training. Those who have seen my dog retreive will tell you that it is probably his favourite exercise.

Whatever method that you use, you should not use the "game of dumbell" as the driving force behind a retreive. Otherwise, you won't have a "retreive", just a game of fetch. I am not saying that you cant play with it outside formal training, but I don't.

During a trial, the dog "has to" retreive. Personally, I wouldn't spend a couple of hundred bucks on a trialling weekend only for my dog to "not be feeling very playfull".

These trainers are nearly always shown up under moderate to high distraction.

I have trained one dog using the marker method, but I found it just took far too long compared to FR to get it at a reliable stage. Even then, I still was never 100% confident. Oscar took one week to have a moderately proofed retreive, another week till I would be confident enough to of had it at basic trial standard, one more week till his retreive matched the mental picture I was after (speed and accuracy, lack of mouthing etc) Oscar is quite soft, so he was very easy to teach.

Many people think that a hard dog is more suited to FR, but I find the opposite. When I tried it on my BT, he just looked at me and smiled (was using considerable force) went on to train him with marker method instead.

My crossbred on the other hand, I only needed to suggest gently touching his ear, and he complied instantly. Oscar was the same.

Using the ear pinch method is IMO less uncomfortable for a dog than a rip on a checkchain. It is done on the cartlidge part, and no "pulling" whatsoever is involved. I have heard barbaric stories of pliers etc but never seen it. Some trainers have been known to use a "hang dog" method with checkchain as well, but I think a dog that required that wouldn't be much fun to train, and I definately would not go to that extreme.

So, in summary, I mainly use FR because it gets really fast results, but if the method does not suit the dog, I will use marker or clicker.

Ah, Dogdude, just wait til I see you at FOO nights again!!! LOL. Why does the dog 'have' to retrieve in formal training, pray tell??? The dog should by DYING to retrieve for you, just for the fun of it, in formal training or otherwise imho. And formal training, well, play should be integrated into training at all times imho. Training should be SUPER FUN otherwise you can tell, you can pick the dogs when you watch them work. I will show you what I mean when I see you. Look, I'm not knocking the forced retrieve method as it's one that's been used for years with success, though as you say, there are varying forced retrieve methods. But my dog will shoot out like a rocket and shoot back like a rocket, jam her head up against me with dumbell in her mouth, hand it over and finish beautifully... all because she's been conditioned that it IS a game, it is fun. Play, play, play, I say LOL.

BTW, Foo nights are starting up again in October I was told by one of the people running it, so look out in VCA mag for it everyone as it will be advertised again

[Arya]

I agree, play with the dumbell. I have heard others say keep it for work only and no play. What a disincentive for the dog to do dumbell! Play with it and have some fun. Who cares if they miss the odd formal finish in a trial? Doesn't happen anyway if you're careful and ask for a formal finish now and again. A tip to increase drive to run out and retrieve the dumbell for those who train in play/prey drive: stick your dog's favourite throw toy or ball or hose in your pocket. Throw the dumbell, when dog brings back don't do formal finish, just throw the toy/prey item after taking the dumbell. Keep it informal. This builds drive REALLY fast. Just chuck a formal one in with a nice finish now and again. It's a load of fun for you too

Thanks Arya - that is an excellent suggestion and funnily enough - we are having difficulty with the 'send out'.... not sure if I can do this exactly as as soon as you throw another toy - he'll drop it!

I taught it pretty much the way Jesomil did- although got stuck to move from 'placing' mouth on D/b to 'holding' - the most 'force' I used was to gently hold his mouth shut and reward heavily for it. It hasn't taken me long to get to the full retrieve, but from me being a novice trainer and missing key steps initially - we always seem to hunt up one problem or other. Plus - Leo's attitude is 'if it's dead - why chase it?!"

With Kinta i'm teaching as per Jesomil again but with a few 'play retrieves' also to build up the fun and excitement of the object etc

LP, don't worry about the dropping at first. Show him the toy, then stick it in your pocket. Send him out to dumbell. Minute he comes back pull out toy and chuck it. So a rhythm gets established, toy, bell, toy, bell. Great fun for the dog. This is not just my idea. Play with dumbell is also advocated by someone I know who has gotten 200pts in the trial ring with more than one of this dogs Also, just another comment... for those whose dogs love to tug and bite on stuff. I have been building drive on the recall by using a bite roll. Set the dog up formally, walk away to required distance. Turn, whip the bite roll out and go crazy. Watch those dogs rocket in!!! Then chuck a formal one in without the BR every now and again. It works. If the dog gets up before you're ready, 'it's groundhog day'. Meaning, they have to wait for the fun as you repeat the whole set up and walk away again. You'd be surprised how quick they learn to sit still and hold themselves in for the chance to rocket down the field at 100 klicks to get that roll! Not for all dogs but for my GSD it's heaven Isn't that what training's about? Not too serious imho!!! The wins will come in the trial ring if the dog loves all aspects of the work and associates it all with good fun and including the thought of play.

Just my approach. Dogdude is a great trainer too, I've seen his lovely dog. Just different horses for courses as the saying goes.

[poodlesplus]

I can't tell you about the British Bulldog but I can tell you that I am helping an American Bulldog do tracking. He is catching on and force has no part in his training. I also know of trainers of such brillant retrieving breeds as whippets,chinese cresteds, dallys and my absolute favourite retrievers of all time Ridgies who all have advanced titles on the board without forced retrieves. I will admit that they are handled by trainers that I admire greatly. I personally do not have the patience to teach any of these breeds.

I also find it sad that forced retrieves are seen as "neccessary" for gun dogs in gun dog training. May be i have the gun dog from heaven (i don't) but compulsion would never have got him to go any faster than he did. I like to be standing at the ends of these excercises. As I said, i just would like to see the studies that show that compulsion beats an induced retreive.

I also know that what one person sees as an adversive the next person sees as guidance. I am not of the school generally that would suggest that it is a good idea to hang around waiting for a dog to think about making contact with a dumbell in a free shaping arrangement. i would certainly close down the options a bit.and get the food working. I would certainly help some breeds realise that the dumb bell wasn't an instruement of torture and that it could even help them.

[dogdude]

I am not up with gun dog training, so I really do not know why they use FR. Probably the same reason as I use it. Its quicker.

There has been books written by top trainers that do suggest that FR does produce more reliable retreives, but no studys that I know of. I speak from experience training different breeds. Every one has there own line of thinking though. I respect that.

Hi Arya

Yes, looking forward to FOO nights, and I hope some of the other DOLers can make it this year.

Anyone else planning to come? Leo, JulesP, Jesomil, RoxysMum, Shoemonster? They do mock trials with real judges, and have a BBQ as well.

[leopuppy04]

Hi Arya

Yes, looking forward to FOO nights, and I hope some of the other DOLers can make it this year.

Anyone else planning to come? Leo, JulesP, Jesomil, RoxysMum, Shoemonster? They do mock trials with real judges, and have a BBQ as well.

Yep - i'm going DD - great chance to practice some OPEN with Leo and some NOVICE with Kinta (or at least get laughed at!).... I can't wait!

AS for the DB - Arya thanks for the further tips - i'll let you know how it goes, Leo's prob is that the d/b is just not that exciting and I have to make it more exciting that the squeaky tennis ball *evil grin* - yes it's still alive :(

Poodlesplus - I think I know you from the Oz obedience list - welcome to DOL