Play Drive

[4 Paws]

for those that may be interested i have ordered an orbee ball and a stuff and fetch thing from here

http://www.airdogs.com.au/xcart/home.php?cat=255

The stuff and fetch is designed to place treats in and throw and get the dog to retreive it and when they bring it to you ,you can give them a treat from it.Thought it might help with the retreiving and wanting to give it to you,as you open it and reward.Think it might help that it's got thes ent of the treats coming through so might entice the dog to get it rather than a ball

[Sarah L]

for those that may be interested i have ordered an orbee ball and a stuff and fetch thing from here

http://www.airdogs.com.au/xcart/home.php?cat=255

The stuff and fetch is designed to place treats in and throw and get the dog to retreive it and when they bring it to you ,you can give them a treat from it.Thought it might help with the retreiving and wanting to give it to you,as you open it and reward.Think it might help that it's got thes ent of the treats coming through so might entice the dog to get it rather than a ball

Thanks for clearing things up 4paws. The toy sounds like a great toy, the only problem I can envisage may happen is that they may not bring it back to you if the retrieve has not been taught in the first place, but take it and try and get the treats out for themselves, but you never know.

[PAX]

tugging doesnt have much of a use when it comes to training a dog for the show ring, in case you didnt know L&L

I dont understand what ur saying?...Did i say it DID have something to do with the show ring???? Seems alot of people are taking alot of things out of text here.

I said i have well trained dogs but NOT up to show standard.

No, This is what you wrote.

and as far as training goes,..im ok with that. I dont train show dogs,just well balanced dogs.

I think it's time we moved on now that you know tugging is safe if played correctly, like all things dog.

[Mushaka]

Still ..what i sed is backin up wat i first said?..how did it differ?

Hmmmmmmmmm yes move right along...

[Vickie]

An interesting thread...

My 2 cents for what it's worth...

I agree with PDTS, making sure you teach them to play separately first can be very important, especially in certain pack dynamics.

I also have no problem using food to teach play & have done this with 2 of my dogs. It is basic premack principle & definitely works for many types of dogs.

I also taught one of mine who had no interest in balls/play a formal retrieve using food & then progressed that into play. Now he's a ball/tug mad demon

I tug with 3 of my 4 dogs. One I don't feel can cope with it emotionally but the others love it. I also live in a house with small children. They (the children) had been taught from day one that they are to seek my approval before ANY games with MY dogs.

Dog Dude,many Dogs I have seen have had their freedom to express Prey Drive hampered by the Owner.The Dog in these cases learn inoder to be whole and let my Prey drive Flow I must get away from the Owner.The Dogs in these situations learn they must repress Drive when with or around the Owner.The Dog learns that their is resistance in him being a Dog and expressing his Prey Drive.

All Dogs naturally have Prey Drive, some higher than others of course all depending on the Dogs temperament,experiences and Genetics.

Using Food is in some cases the First stage in working towards breaking down resistance the Dog may have learnt inregard to him letting Prey Drive flow.Once the motivation for Food gets him chasing the Ball and he encounters no resistance,then the pathway for Prey drive to flow is opened.

I think the above is brilliant Tony! If only more people understood what you are trying to say. Along similar lines, I see a lot of people who are into the new craze of "Training in Drive". Personally I think some of them are confusing the hell out of their dogs. Sometimes I think they are doing things the wrong way round by overcontrolling their dogs from day one & then wondering why the dog won't get hyped (something they have never been allowed to do) when they decide to train in drive . Don't get me wrong, control is good, but I think you can use play to get control, it is much harder to get play from control. Hope that makes sense.

At the end of the day, I think you need to decide what you want out of your dogs & do whatever works for you. I know people see Trim & I walk (she drags me) to the start line in agility & wonder how on earth I will ever control her in the ring. I know she could walk in at heel, but I want her to want it so bad that she is dragging me to get there. And she does. Personally I don't care what others think, we do what works for us. If I had trouble keeping her on course I might do things differently.

Edited August 13, 2007 by Vickie

[JulesP]

At the end of the day, I think you need to decide what you want out of your dogs & do whatever works for you. I know people see Trim & I walk (she drags me) to the start line in agility & wonder how on earth I will ever control her in the ring. I know she could walk in at heel, but I want her to want it so bad that she is dragging me to get there. And she does. Personally I don't care what others think, we do what works for us. If I had trouble keeping her on course I might do things differently.

Heehee I like that theory! Brock pulls like a train to dog school evey week. Now I am just gunna tell people he is keen and wants to train

[Vickie]

Heehee I like that theory! Brock pulls like a train to dog school evey week. Now I am just gunna tell people he is keen and wants to train

well it only works if that's the only time he pulls

[Tonymc]

Vickie,thank you for the very kind words my Friend.You got it straightaway and know exactly what I mean.Also Vickie a while back I tried to send you a message but could not get through. Tony

[Mushaka]

Can u believe i went to training and the very subject of tug o war came up by the instructer.

She advised that u should never play tuo o war until ur dog knows who is charge (pack leader) and is out of nipping stages etc.

She said that u shld never play if there are children in the house as dogs dont see them as dominants and may continue to play with the kid once the game is over,or may initiate the game on a child.

I have owned staffys for over 15 years and co owned prior to that,in this time they have all lived inside with me and my kids. Just as it is important to ALWAYS watch ur kids in general,it isnt always possible 100% of the time.Sometimes i need to pee or i walk from one room to the other etc..do i take the dogs outside everytime i pee etc?? all three of them?

I think if u have small kids its better to teach the children correct ways to handle dogs,and to leave them alone in my absence. And to teach the dogs never to vie for things from each other or anyone else.

IMO only..and this works well for me and has done for many years!!

HHHHHmmmmmm...?? Well I think i will just leave tugging out of my house and keep it that way!

[JulesP]

Playing tug of war is an excellant way to teach the dog that you are pack leader, starting from when the dog is a pup preferably. Playing tug and then getting the pup to give up the toy (in exchange for a treat) shows that you are the boss. If you are the one that chooses when the game ends and you end up with the toy then you are showing that you are pack leader.

So it really depends on how you are playing tug of war. The game that my club recommends never playing is chasey.

[Cosmolo]

It also depends on the drive of your dog and how you stimulate them otherwise. I have a couple of dogs with high prey drivs and if i didn't play tug, i believe i would have alot of problems as there would be no outlet for their drive. I certainly don't have any problems with stealing/ nipping etc, even when there are children around. This old theory of it creating dominance is exactly that- an old theory. The only time i would not play tug is if the dog had some dominance/ leadership issues already.

[Mushaka]

thanx cosmolo..would u encourage it in puppies? This is wat the trainer was referring to? Do u think she is out dated in her training too?? She said not to play it with kids in the vicinity and not to play until puppy is old enough to have learnt to stop nipping etc. what r ur thoughts on that? Im going to bombard her with all ur answers soon lol

[Vickie]

thanx cosmolo..would u encourage it in puppies? This is wat the trainer was referring to? Do u think she is out dated in her training too?? She said not to play it with kids in the vicinity and not to play until puppy is old enough to have learnt to stop nipping etc. what r ur thoughts on that? Im going to bombard her with all ur answers soon lol

L&L, I think it depends on how confident you are as a trainer. There are plenty of us who have young children who start our pups tugging at 8 weeks. I have not had a problem with this & it works for me. If YOU do not feel YOU have the necessary experience & skills to do this, or have any doubts then you are probably better off not doing it. And if you have no need to use tug for training purposes, then why bother?

[leopuppy04]

Maybe with a rank aggressive dog, but even then i doubt whether tug would cause all the "adverse effects" you listed.

Actually even with an aggressive dog - or one trying to climb the ranks - tug is a great game as the dog relinquishes the toy to you AND learns that you control all good things. It is a great game to play and actually asserts you as owner, not the other way around.

As others have already said - your dogs will learn what and when to tug

I wish my boy tugged properly ;)

ETA - with each dog from now on - I will mainly be concentrating on the first 6mths on just that - tugging, playing with toys, basic obedience and social - nothing more. I inadvertently did it with Leo, started a little later with Kinta (she came home at 5mths) and so far I like the results I have! The only thing I didn't do was not tug with Leo until about 12mths and I regret it!

Edited August 14, 2007 by leopuppy04

[Jeff Jones]

I start my puppies on the tug toy as soon as I get them home which is ussually 8 weeks old, this avoids me having any problems with them biting/nipping anything that I dont want them to as they soon learn when it is ok to bite and more importantly when it is not ok to bite.

[jesomil]

I start my puppies on the tug toy as soon as I get them home which is ussually 8 weeks old, this avoids me having any problems with them biting/nipping anything that I dont want them to as they soon learn when it is ok to bite and more importantly when it is not ok to bite.

Totally agree. I started my new pup on the tug as soon as i got her home at 8 weeks. I also have a one year old child. The puppy knows that she can bite as much as she wants on the tug but not on the child. Maybe the tug gives them a outlet for all the biting they love to do.

ETA I think it has a bit to do why why you are teaching your dog to tug and your relationship with the dog. I wouldnt have taught my pup to tug if i didnt require it for training.

Edited August 14, 2007 by jesomil

[Sarah L]

thanx cosmolo..would u encourage it in puppies? This is wat the trainer was referring to? Do u think she is out dated in her training too?? She said not to play it with kids in the vicinity and not to play until puppy is old enough to have learnt to stop nipping etc. what r ur thoughts on that? Im going to bombard her with all ur answers soon lol

L&L is your instructor at puppy school a vet nurse or a dog trainer? Which puppy school are you attending?

This will be important as to the advice you are given. If you wish to can you tell us what else was covered in the class last night in case anything else may have been taught to you in the wrong way. In the end it is up to you whether you play tug with your dogs or not. But with what you have been told already I would start a new thread on your puppy class training so that if any wrong info has been given to you we can help you out.

[sidoney]

I did too much control with my Kelpie when she was young, and it's taken quite a bit to get her back into play. Our best success was pairing tug with treat. Now she tugs, chases squeaky, etc. 'coz she loves it. Still working on getting it "out and about". Pinnacle dts, I'd very much like to hear your input on that. Ultimately I want to use it for agility.

We're having Vizsla pups in a few months and I'm keeping one - I'll be putting much more of my time into playing with the puppy.

My first Vizsla, Amy, was very "well behaved" but she was trained in a way that was not conducive to motivation, before I knew better, and I think a lot of her natural exuberance was suppressed. In certain situations anyway.

My next one (Shaula, her daughter, now ten) was one of the first clicker trained ob titled dogs in Aust but back then in clicker training, the emphasis was more on food and less on toy. Still, she did learn to tug and play at an older age, and she does love to play agility.

I have used tug in the show ring (with Cedar, now six) and will do so again, more in fact, with the pup I will soon have. I want that excitement and sparkle that playing with toys gives. Has anyone else done it?

I would also like comments on "transfer of value" of reward, if anyone has any. That has to do with Premack, that Vickie mentioned. Susan Garrett talks about it in her book on her experiences training her dog Buzz.

Edited August 14, 2007 by sidoney

[Mushaka]

she was a vet nurse for 10 yearsbut is now an accredited trainer.

To be honest i think i knew more than her ..lol..either that or she just takes it easy on newbies.The other owners an puppies had NO IDEA,..it was driving me INSANE watching another family with two puppy staffys allow the pups to chew on the leads the entire class. ANd the trainer said nothing. AHHHhhhh

My dog already sits comes etc..and she said she wont teach come until week 3.

I think come would be better to learn than sit????

[Mushaka]

doesnt bother me really wat she teaching,im only there for the puppy play. Get Indie used to all breeds of dogs etc.

i was very proud wen we were asked to get our dogs and put them back on lead. the class scrambled about trying to round up there babies. and i just stayed where i was and called "Indie, COME',..she came straight back even though she had all those puppies to play with.