Sarah L Posted August 13, 2007 Share Posted August 13, 2007 If it was me, I would use the orbee, because building drive using tug element as well will enhance the dogs excitement, while you are teasing him with it.If you plan to use the drive to train them, then definately the orbee. I would not include food rewards if its prey drive that you want. Hi dogdude, 4paws wanted some help with getting her dogs to play with toys, the recommendations I gave were simple for that. Some of it may have looked like prey drive training. My recommendations were for motivating the dogs into play and not a full on program for prey drive. Using food rewards in these cases were simple to reward the dog for bringing back the toy once it had been thrown. Once 4 paws achieves a good toy response with simple retrieving as a play game, then at the end of my post was when I suggested tug would be another good game to introduce. I wanted to find out how she went with the first part before giving advice on tug games. However looking back on my post I now realise I did not explain that I wanted to wait for a response to the first part. Thank you to every one who agreed that tug can be a good game to play with your dog and it can simply be just that.... a game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonymc Posted August 13, 2007 Share Posted August 13, 2007 No problem Pinnacle.We all see so many tired old fallacies about Dogs going around. Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogdude Posted August 13, 2007 Share Posted August 13, 2007 Hi Pinniacle dts From what little I know about drive training, its not good to switch from using one drive to another in the same exercise, or at all? If you use a food reward to teach the dog to go after the ball, wouldn't it be food drive that it is working for?Kind of teaching retrieve? Obviously you would drop the food reward, but would it have helped to build up prey/toy drive? I'm not so sure. I am not an expert in prey drive training though. Just what I have picked up here. I use food drive to train my dog, but he will not chase a ball unless I ask him to retrieve it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mushaka Posted August 13, 2007 Share Posted August 13, 2007 Myszka I Like u was told the same thing.. its a no no. I have only rescued dogs since then and have never rescued a dog interested in these games anyway. My pup now has not been taught anything beyond come and sit...but she starts PUPPY SCHOOL today...YAY. Things change opinions change,even in the professional world of training, Obviously the thoughts on tug-o-war kind of games has now changed. It isnt a MYTH,but i guess from what im reading,its an outdated theory. Even in the medical world,things change..i had my first child 18 yrs ago,back then u were told to lie baby on thier side. I now have a 16wk old and am told that u must NEVER lie a baby on its side,but instead flat on thier backs...and long before my time it was actually suggested baby sleep on thier tummies...OT i know,but proving my point of evolution and revelations etc Im surprised pinnacle since ur a qualified dog trainer that u would feel the need to have ur ego stroked by people on a dog forum by them agreeing with you?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonymc Posted August 13, 2007 Share Posted August 13, 2007 Dog Dude,many Dogs I have seen have had their freedom to express Prey Drive hampered by the Owner.The Dog in these cases learn inoder to be whole and let my Prey drive Flow I must get away from the Owner.The Dogs in these situations learn they must repress Drive when with or around the Owner.The Dog learns that their is resistance in him being a Dog and expressing his Prey Drive. All Dogs naturally have Prey Drive, some higher than others of course all depending on the Dogs temperament,experiences and Genetics. Using Food is in some cases the First stage in working towards breaking down resistance the Dog may have learnt inregard to him letting Prey Drive flow.Once the motivation for Food gets him chasing the Ball and he encounters no resistance,then the pathway for Prey drive to flow is opened. Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarah L Posted August 13, 2007 Share Posted August 13, 2007 Hi Pinniacle dtsFrom what little I know about drive training, its not good to switch from using one drive to another in the same exercise, or at all? If you use a food reward to teach the dog to go after the ball, wouldn't it be food drive that it is working for?Kind of teaching retrieve? Obviously you would drop the food reward, but would it have helped to build up prey/toy drive? I'm not so sure. I am not an expert in prey drive training though. Just what I have picked up here. I use food drive to train my dog, but he will not chase a ball unless I ask him to retrieve it. No dogdude it would not be food drive the dog would be working for, it would only be confirmation to the dog it did the right thing to bring the toy back. It's the same with dogs who already chase a ball but will not bring it back and the owner has to chase it around to get it. Rewarding the dog when it brings the toy back is much easier for the owner to communicate to the dog that it did the right things. Not every one wants to jump up and down like a headless chicken and shriek in a excitable voice to praise there dog for something well done. This next comment is not directed at you dogdude, but I think people can get to hung up on drive training. All we are talking about here is simply to get a dog to play with its owner with some toys for fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarah L Posted August 13, 2007 Share Posted August 13, 2007 Dog Dude,many Dogs I have seen have had their freedom to express Prey Drive hampered by the Owner.The Dog in these cases learn inoder to be whole and let my Prey drive Flow I must get away from the Owner.The Dogs in these situations learn they must repress Drive when with or around the Owner.The Dog learns that their is resistance in him being a Dog and expressing his Prey Drive. All Dogs naturally have Prey Drive, some higher than others of course all depending on the Dogs temperament,experiences and Genetics. Using Food is in some cases the First stage in working towards breaking down resistance the Dog may have learnt inregard to him letting Prey Drive flow.Once the motivation for Food gets him chasing the Ball and he encounters no resistance,then the pathway for Prey drive to flow is opened. Tony Tony I wish I had your way with words, I am envious Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogdude Posted August 13, 2007 Share Posted August 13, 2007 Hi Tony I do not think prey drive and food drive have anything in common, other than drive. My own dog proves that to me. I do not chop and change the drive satisfaction for my dog. I am happy to agree to disagree though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarah L Posted August 13, 2007 Share Posted August 13, 2007 Myszka I Like u was told the same thing.. its a no no.I have only rescued dogs since then and have never rescued a dog interested in these games anyway. My pup now has not been taught anything beyond come and sit...but she starts PUPPY SCHOOL today...YAY. Things change opinions change,even in the professional world of training, Obviously the thoughts on tug-o-war kind of games has now changed. It isnt a MYTH,but i guess from what im reading,its an outdated theory. Even in the medical world,things change..i had my first child 18 yrs ago,back then u were told to lie baby on thier side. I now have a 16wk old and am told that u must NEVER lie a baby on its side,but instead flat on thier backs...and long before my time it was actually suggested baby sleep on thier tummies...OT i know,but proving my point of evolution and revelations etc Im surprised pinnacle since ur a qualified dog trainer that u would feel the need to have ur ego stroked by people on a dog forum by them agreeing with you?? No L&L I don't need my ego stroked, it was just courtesy on my part, maybe that's something you need to learn about along with learning more about dog training before posting rubbish and confusing the OP. many people on this forum have given you advice and offer of assistance including myself but you still seem to be no further on than when you first started. I think its time you stopped talking dog training and start doing some instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonymc Posted August 13, 2007 Share Posted August 13, 2007 Dogdude,no worries my Friend yes we can agree to disagree.Pinnacle thank you for your very kind words. Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogdude Posted August 13, 2007 Share Posted August 13, 2007 Pehaps I am reading into something that is not there in the original post? My understanding is that 4Paws wants to build toy(prey) drive in her dog. Teaching retrieve and "drive" are two different things. I guess the outcome will be determined if 4Paws wants to use it to train exercises, or just wants them to chase a ball. To me, this is not clear? Perhaps I am having a moment? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sayreovi Posted August 13, 2007 Share Posted August 13, 2007 (edited) Tug of war is never a good game to play with a dog. I am not sure who told you that. It has several adverse effects.The dog learns to compete against you, rather then work with you or for you. The dog becomes mouthy with objects when you are around. At any time the dog will try and take an object from you that he wants. They have a hard time understanding this is just a game and not a competition. We always tell our adopteres to never play tug of war with a dog. It can get scary very quickly when the dog decides he is tired of the game and just wants to win. Good luck in training your dog. Source(s): Animal rescuer Ahh Best i go tell all the flyball and agility people that use a tug toy (about 90%) to stop as it is not the right thing to do!! I assure you that it is certainly not making the dog not work with the owner, more the opposite in fact. I am actually encouraging one of my dogs to tug, and tug hard......want him to kill for that tug. Tugging can be and is a good game to play, though i wouldnt play it with an already dominant aggressive dog. Edited August 13, 2007 by tollersowned Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mushaka Posted August 13, 2007 Share Posted August 13, 2007 Im pretty sure that i DID say that i can agree that my theory must have been outdated...! I dont believe tug o war topic has risen before or i would have heard more before. But I CAN tell u that the last Dog i trained was with the help of people like Steve Austin and others and i was told not to do it..as i DID say,and am saying AGAIN,that from what ive since researched since lastnight and today that it is an outdated theory! You offered help to me at a fee..not free!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarah L Posted August 13, 2007 Share Posted August 13, 2007 Im pretty sure that i DID say that i can agree that my theory must have been outdated...!I dont believe tug o war topic has risen before or i would have heard more before. But I CAN tell u that the last Dog i trained was with the help of people like Steve Austin and others and i was told not to do it..as i DID say,and am saying AGAIN,that from what ive since researched since lastnight and today that it is an outdated theory! You offered help to me at a fee..not free!! Do you think Steve Austin will train your dog for free? I will say again many people on this forum have given you advice for free. You just don't seem to listen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mushaka Posted August 13, 2007 Share Posted August 13, 2007 And wat makes u think i dont listen? can u please explain here WHAT it is that has indicated that im NOT listening? ..and do u liken urself to Steve Austin? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mushaka Posted August 13, 2007 Share Posted August 13, 2007 and as far as training goes,..im ok with that. I dont train show dogs,just well balanced dogs. My only problem is that i have new rescue staffy who has seperation issues. Far beyond the norm,and out of my leauge. The vet has suggested he goes on an anti depressant its so bad. I havent asked for any other training advice at ALL?. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted August 13, 2007 Share Posted August 13, 2007 (edited) tugging doesnt have much of a use when it comes to training a dog for the show ring, in case you didnt know L&L Edited August 13, 2007 by myszka Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarah L Posted August 13, 2007 Share Posted August 13, 2007 Pehaps I am reading into something that is not there in the original post? My understanding is that 4Paws wants to build toy(prey) drive in her dog. Teaching retrieve and "drive" are two different things.I guess the outcome will be determined if 4Paws wants to use it to train exercises, or just wants them to chase a ball. To me, this is not clear? ;) Perhaps I am having a moment? I guess your right dogdude I don't think your having moment, maybe because 4paws used the word drive then I am the one who has got it wrong. I just read it as wanting to teach the dogs how to play with toys. We will just have to wait and see Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4 Paws Posted August 13, 2007 Author Share Posted August 13, 2007 Thankyou everyone for your thoughts. I am interested in getting them to play first,mainly for evercise at this stage as we have moved to a smaller block and it's a very steep backyard so they don't get a lot of exercise apart from a walk, with the possibility of using it in training in the future I hope this clears things up thanks again julie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mushaka Posted August 13, 2007 Share Posted August 13, 2007 tugging doesnt have much of a use when it comes to training a dog for the show ring, in case you didnt know L&L I dont understand what ur saying?...Did i say it DID have something to do with the show ring???? Seems alot of people are taking alot of things out of text here. I said i have well trained dogs but NOT up to show standard. What im saying is that im no pro at trainin doggies,but know enough to train my dogs to be good dogs. People that dont know anything about dogs think my dogs r well behaved and well trained.. i of course know that my dogs know nothing (due to my lack of expertese ) compared to MOST of the dogs around the show/competition ring etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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