Sarah L Posted August 14, 2007 Share Posted August 14, 2007 I did too much control with my Kelpie when she was young, and it's taken quite a bit to get her back into play. Our best success was pairing tug with treat. Now she tugs, chases squeaky, etc. 'coz she loves it. Still working on getting it "out and about". Pinnacle dts, I'd very much like to hear your input on that. Ultimately I want to use it for agility. Hi Sidoney, Do you mean getting her to do the same kind of play out with your home or out of her mouth to let go. Just not sure what you mean. I think you mean out with your home yes! but can you let me know. Also what have you been doing so far if it is playing out with your home you mean. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lablover Posted August 14, 2007 Share Posted August 14, 2007 Thankyou everyone for your thoughts.I am interested in getting them to play first,mainly for evercise at this stage as we have moved to a smaller block and it's a very steep backyard so they don't get a lot of exercise apart from a walk, with the possibility of using it in training in the future I hope this clears things up thanks again julie I would simply try food as the reward or reinforcer, for training. Whatever works best. By the sounds of it, your GSDs for whatever reason, do not sound as though "toys" would be the "best". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidoney Posted August 14, 2007 Share Posted August 14, 2007 (edited) Yes, out of home, LOL, sorry for not being clear. I need to make it clear that current personal circumstances mean that I'm more of an intermittent rather than constant dog trainer at the moment. I was working on activating the toy and having her chase then catch it, and it was working well as I moved it out the front and then to the park,and further like in front of Maccas. However going to an agility trial to spectate was too big a step, and I didn't really have the time or facilities for intermediate steps. I went back to baby steps and had her tug for food in the kitchen. The next time we spectated at an agility trial, she understood that she would get the food by tugging. I have continued to work on this and also on tugging without food in various contexts. I'm happy to say that the last time we spectated at a trial she was keen to tug in that context with food nowhere in sight. However, I'm not convinced that it is reliable at the moment. Also I don't think that she would "work all day" for it, as some dogs do. It may be that I'm just trying to put her into a mould to which she is not best suited. She loves to get a toy and kill it, squeakers are great, and if she can disembowel it, that's even better. Here's a question again of how uncritically one should accept recommended training methods. I have been told, and have read, that tug is an interactive game. If I give her a toy to kill on her own, then to what extent do I lose the benefits of that interactivity? So I guess that's two main questions. One is how to increase the desire for the toy. And the other is how much should I ask her to play my preferred game, and how much should I play her preferred game? (I welcome comments from anyone on these questions - of course the first one has been gone over again and again, which is why I'm interested particularly in pinnacle's input, as I've not yet had a chance to pick her brains! ) Edited August 14, 2007 by sidoney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarah L Posted August 14, 2007 Share Posted August 14, 2007 (edited) Yes, out of home, LOL, sorry for not being clear. I need to make it clear that current personal circumstances mean that I'm more of an intermittent rather than constant dog trainer at the moment That's ok just do what you can when you can it will all help. I was working on activating the toy and having her chase then catch it, and it was working well as I moved it out the front and then to the park,and further like in front of Maccas. However going to an agility trial to spectate was too big a step, and I didn't really have the time or facilities for intermediate steps. I went back to baby steps and had her tug for food in the kitchen. The next time we spectated at an agility trial, she understood that she would get the food by tugging. I have continued to work on this and also on tugging without food in various contexts. I'm happy to say that the last time we spectated at a trial she was keen to tug in that context with food nowhere in sight. However, I'm not convinced that it is reliable at the moment. Also I don't think that she would "work all day" for it, as some dogs do. Possibly you have taken the food reward away to early for her and she has become confused. Also it would be a good idea to mix up the tug with throwing it for her, when she brings it back have a tug and then offer the reward to let go and throw it again. Take her off to one side at the trial or in the park where it is quite and play where there is not so many dogs and work closer to the other dogs when she is reliable. But I don't mean right in front of the other dogs. keep the sessions short and motivating so that you can practise 3 or 4 time in these places rather than one big long session. But I am sure you know this part already. It may be that I'm just trying to put her into a mould to which she is not best suited. She loves to get a toy and kill it, squeakers are great, and if she can disembowel it, that's even better. Here's a question again of how uncritically one should accept recommended training methods. I have been told, and have read, that tug is an interactive game. If I give her a toy to kill on her own, then to what extent do I lose the benefits of that interactivity? The fact that she is now doing both to me seems you are not putting her in a mould that is not suited to her. Only that there was to much control on her before which has made it harder on you now to undo. I don't think anyone should accept recommended training methods without as much info from both party's being discussed. I would give her times to play on her own with what she likes but don't let this out weigh the times she plays with you. I think again that maybe you have taken the conformation to the dog that she is doing the right thing away to early by not rewarding with the food on some occasions. This will be particularly important if you cannot be consistent in your training at the moment. So I guess that's two main questions. One is how to increase the desire for the toy. And the other is how much should I ask her to play my preferred game, and how much should I play her preferred game? All of what I have said above, with the addition of also snaking the tug along the ground for the dog to pounce on and for her to try and stop it and pick it up in her mouth and when she does start tug with her offering a reward for her to let it go, when you want her to so that you can either throw it or snake it or simply offer the tug straight out. Mixing it up like this will keep her motivated to play. Do this at home in the park and at trials. Hope this will help you and thank you the compliment of wanting to pick my brains although on some days I have a hard time getting it to work myself I need to one day also pick your brains on a few things, let me know when you have the time to meet. Edited August 14, 2007 by pinnacle dts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted August 14, 2007 Share Posted August 14, 2007 Although I have worked on getting Kaos to tug since he was a pup (he is the only one of mine that will tug consistently) - I have a similar problem to Sidoney in that he gets too distracted when out and about to be interested in the tug. Will do it in front and back yard enthusiastically, but not on a walk. Sometimes will tug once he has settled into in area, such as at training or someone's house. I think my main problem with getting him to tug outside the property is that when he is not interested in tug I feel like an idiot waving this toy around when Kaos just looks at me . You would have thought by now I would have a thicker skin in what people think when they see me training, considering I spit food with Diesel He does love his squeaky though ;) and will happily focus on that wherever we go. Back to L&L and should you tug - I think it depends on whether you want to. I want to use tug as a motivator for training (and it is lots of fun! Kaos loves it when he gets into it) but if you have no use for it and are worried about it, then don't do it. There are other ways to motivate a dog, I use food a lot when I want a good but not so animated response and for the dogs that are not keen to work for a toy. At work, a lot of the Staffies LOVE to tug! including the boss's dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarah L Posted August 14, 2007 Share Posted August 14, 2007 Kavik have you tried mixing it up and snaking it along the ground Like I have suggested to Sidoney? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tassie Posted August 14, 2007 Share Posted August 14, 2007 I have been told, and have read, that tug is an interactive game. If I give her a toy to kill on her own, then to what extent do I lose the benefits of that interactivity? I've got one (BC) - my agility girl - who plays tug very enthusiastically with me, but my boy is a bit too 'polite' and worried about doing the wrong thing to tug very much with me. I can rev him up about a stuffed toy and he'll get quite keen on 'killing' it vigorously - but is quite happy for me to have it. I use that mostly as an end reward in tracking - paired iwth a food reward. There was a suggestion early on in this thread about putting the toy on the end of a lead or something, so an over-polite, or shy, dog can get excited and tug with you, but without getting too close. As the dog gets confident over time, you can shorten the lead. I heard that suggestion at a training camp last year, and thought it a good one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidoney Posted August 14, 2007 Share Posted August 14, 2007 (edited) pinnicle, thanks very much for your input, you have definitely given me more to go on with than I had before. It would be great to meet up some time. but my boy is a bit too 'polite' and worried about doing the wrong thing to tug very much with me. That is very much Shaula. I have had to let her know she's allowed to tug the toy. She would just say, oh, you want it? OK. Once she learned that I wanted her to tug, then she became happy to tug, but not a tug monster. Part of it was getting down low in relation to her while making the toy active (initially a rolled up face washer), and part of it was lots of praise when she took it in her mouth, and letting her have it. Also letting her decide what pressure to use, resisting her pull rather than trying to pull it myself. Each of my dogs teaches me something. Hopefully one day I'll have learned enough. I think I also did food rewards with her too. I've not concentrated on tugging with her that much, although I did go to a tug workshop with her, with a scent detection trainer. There was a suggestion early on in this thread about putting the toy on the end of a lead or something, so an over-polite, or shy, dog can get excited and tug with you, but without getting too close. As the dog gets confident over time, you can shorten the lead. I heard that suggestion at a training camp last year, and thought it a good one. I did this with my fearful foster, Darcie. Chasing and tugging at a distance with her was the answer to getting her over her fears. She learned to tug right up close and became a very strong tugger (VERY strong!) that would tug in strange environments, etc. Oh and a MONSTER at lure coursing (said with a very big grin and wink). Edited August 14, 2007 by sidoney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted August 14, 2007 Share Posted August 14, 2007 Yeah I tried snaking it along the ground - he'll just stand there looking at me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidoney Posted August 14, 2007 Share Posted August 14, 2007 (edited) edit: oops, bit of a bug there, double post. Edited August 14, 2007 by sidoney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAX Posted August 14, 2007 Share Posted August 14, 2007 Yeah I tried snaking it along the ground - he'll just stand there looking at me! Have you tried tugging with a footy sock stuffed with a couple of chicken necks? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrsD Posted August 14, 2007 Share Posted August 14, 2007 thanx cosmolo..would u encourage it in puppies? This is wat the trainer was referring to? Do u think she is out dated in her training too?? She said not to play it with kids in the vicinity and not to play until puppy is old enough to have learnt to stop nipping etc. what r ur thoughts on that? Im going to bombard her with all ur answers soon lol L&L, I think it depends on how confident you are as a trainer. There are plenty of us who have young children who start our pups tugging at 8 weeks. I have not had a problem with this & it works for me. If YOU do not feel YOU have the necessary experience & skills to do this, or have any doubts then you are probably better off not doing it. And if you have no need to use tug for training purposes, then why bother? Completely agree with you Vickie & a couple of others who have made similar comments. My boys arent very young (they are 9), but I have started tugging with Whisper already & she's just turned 9 weeks. But if someone just wants a well mannered dog, isnt very experienced as a trainer & has no use for tugging as a training tool, then there is no real reason for them to do it. Jarrah is so focussed on his toy it doesnt matter if we take him to a strange place - a bomb could go off under him & he would still be staring at it . He loves both tugging & chasing toys/rewards & has an amazing amount of toy drive & also has a high food drive as well (only slightly less than for his toys) so Im very lucky in that respect. I can switch him on anywhere in prey drive, anytime just using whatever I have at hand to work with ie his lead, a cap, hanky etc. I have taught him to cast in a herding paddock the whole length of the paddock from 1 end to the other by using a ball as his reward - who needs sheep to teach herding? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted August 14, 2007 Share Posted August 14, 2007 Yeah I tried snaking it along the ground - he'll just stand there looking at me! Have you tried tugging with a footy sock stuffed with a couple of chicken necks? Have to admit I haven't tried that yet I haven't tried having him tug in a new place for a while, been a bit slack with it lately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arya Posted August 14, 2007 Share Posted August 14, 2007 I never play tug with any of my dogs..always worries me they might decided to tug on somethin else that i DONT want..?? Again..i think it was steve austin that told me that,but again..dont quote me on it!! Not sure what others have written about this but I believe this is a very wrong misconception about tug. I play tug with my dog all the time and have yet to see her tug something inappropriately, like a child's bum or arm LOL. Tug is life and soul to many dogs and a great way for you to bond with your dog. Tug tug tug, let them win. They will do anything for a tug but do differentiate between what is allowed to tug on and what isn't. If they don't and tug on something inappropriately it is my belief that this would have happened anyway as would more likely be a rank issue. It comes back to the old saying that play/prey drive encourages a dog to be 'vicious'. Rubbish imho Definitely a question to ask Steve Austin! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidoney Posted August 14, 2007 Share Posted August 14, 2007 (edited) I haven't tried having him tug in a new place for a while, been a bit slack with it lately. What, anyone would think you are having a baby or something! I have started tugging with Whisper already What? Who is Whisper? Where is a thread for her? Weren't you getting a Kelpie? Quick, spill the beans! Edit: it's OK, I did a search. I suppose I can't call you a traitor, having Pickle here and all. Edited August 14, 2007 by sidoney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrsD Posted August 14, 2007 Share Posted August 14, 2007 I have started tugging with Whisper already What? Who is Whisper? Where is a thread for her? Weren't you getting a Kelpie? Quick, spill the beans! Edit: it's OK, I did a search. I suppose I can't call you a traitor, having Pickle here and all. can you see my new signature? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted August 14, 2007 Share Posted August 14, 2007 Wooo hoooo! Very cute! Like the name too. Congrats! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidoney Posted August 14, 2007 Share Posted August 14, 2007 can you see my new signature? LOL yes of course, but that tells me nothing about breeding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted August 14, 2007 Share Posted August 14, 2007 Jarrah is so focussed on his toy it doesnt matter if we take him to a strange place - a bomb could go off under him & he would still be staring at it :rolleyes: . He loves both tugging & chasing toys/rewards & has an amazing amount of toy drive & also has a high food drive as well (only slightly less than for his toys) so Im very lucky in that respect. I can switch him on anywhere in prey drive, anytime just using whatever I have at hand to work with ie his lead, a cap, hanky etc. I have taught him to cast in a herding paddock the whole length of the paddock from 1 end to the other by using a ball as his reward - who needs sheep to teach herding? ;) ;) He sounds great Mrs D - when can you send him over :rofl: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrsD Posted August 14, 2007 Share Posted August 14, 2007 Thanx JulesP ;) . Sidoney hmmmmmmmm ........... she's sort of related to Vickie's Trim (father/grandfather) ;) . LP - not a hope mate, not a hope - I wouldnt give him up for all the tea in china :rolleyes: . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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