squeak Posted August 8, 2007 Share Posted August 8, 2007 Okay, now that I have seen leopuppy's dog do it, I want to know how she taught it. Open to any and all suggestions. I've had a couple of short sessions with my dog (sighthound X), but already have run into some problems - she thinks that picking up the post in the middle of the quoits and running around with it like a loon is way more interesting than picking up a quoit - when she does pick up a quoit, all she wants to do is run around with it like a loon and/or throw it up in the air - she seems more interested in take a quoit OFF the peg than putting it on!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laffi Posted August 8, 2007 Share Posted August 8, 2007 Okay, now that I have seen leopuppy's dog do it, I want to know how she taught it.Open to any and all suggestions. I've had a couple of short sessions with my dog (sighthound X), but already have run into some problems - she thinks that picking up the post in the middle of the quoits and running around with it like a loon is way more interesting than picking up a quoit - when she does pick up a quoit, all she wants to do is run around with it like a loon and/or throw it up in the air - she seems more interested in take a quoit OFF the peg than putting it on!!! *waiting to LP to reply* In the meantime I can say that I know she shaped it with a clicker and it took quite a bit for Leo to put them on. Talking about the Quoit sets, does anyone know where can I get a wooden one (with wooden rings)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted August 8, 2007 Share Posted August 8, 2007 (edited) Squeak - what have you done so far..... what reward system are you using (voice, clicker etc)..... Have you seen the vids?? Do they help??? *I'd start with the quoit on the pole first and C&T any interaction with the ring. *i'd C&T mouthing the ring, small pickups etc. *I'd then C&T picking up the ring..... *Leo then offered me a pick up and deliberate 'move' down the pole (but he hadn't taken it completely off yet).... I jackpotted that.... *I'd then click the 'drop' onto the pole (id doesn't have to be OFF the pole yet, just a downward movement) - this bit was the hardest to get the dog to understand.... *I'd then C&T the dog lifting the ring off the pole and dropping it back onto the pole (clicking the drop).... this is usually done in 'anticipation' for the food.... *Once the dog is doing the last step reliably - I would move the ring right next to the pole - the dog will lift it up and place it on the pole - I would C&T any 'drops' near the pole and jackpot if it falls onto the pole.... using Successive Approximation - I would raise the bar of difficulty quickly so we didn't get stuck on one step..... *then I gradually moved the ring further and further away from the pole..... *then I added more rings :D Hmm... CTD has taught it also - but differently I think I hope that makes sense! ETA - yes - it was all free shaped as Laffi said - oh and I got my quoit set from Toy Kingdom Laffi Edited August 8, 2007 by leopuppy04 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squeak Posted August 8, 2007 Author Share Posted August 8, 2007 Thanks LP. I haven't done much at all. I have been using a clicker and rewarding with food. I have probably only done about three 5-10 min sessions with her. She is also conditioned to a verbal "yes", but I find for teaching tricks so tends to respond a bit better to the clicker - she seems to understand that she needs to think! I initially started with the quoit on the pole, which Stormy took straight off. I clicked and treated this and she thought it was a fine game.... until she found that she could pull the pole out of the base!!! And started running around with that. I have also tried having the quoit off the pole and clicking for her: - looking at the ring - moving toward the ring - picking up the ring... which is where it falls apart She finds it much more exciting playing with the ring rather than trying to work out what will earn her a click! Last night, I thought I would try something different, as she has almost become obsessed with pulling the peg out of the base. Instead of the pole, I put down an empty box, to try to get her focussed more on the quoits. She is now happily picking up (and throwing around) the quoits... and occasionally actually heading toward the box with them. Whilst I know that it will take time, I guess I am just curious as to whether or not I was on the right track or not. I guess where Stormy might be a little bit different was that her first response was to entirely remove the ring from the post. Also, she seems to find it more rewarding to play with the rings than to work for her click-treat... so any suggestions would be good. She is tug motivated, but I find that it sometimes revs her up too much for her to focus on stuff like this. I think I have seen one video, but links to any others would be good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted August 8, 2007 Share Posted August 8, 2007 (edited) Ok - I would still start with the Quoit on the pole to begin with as the hardest thing to teach the dog is to get the ring on the pole - they can't really approximate that or get to that stage without starting at the end goal - remember backchaining - so you are starting at the end with the quoit on the pole. If she picks up the pole - use a NRM (no reward marker) and take it back off her - if that doesn't work, end the session for 30secs or so..... is she actually doing it to *try* and get a reward? Getting them to 'play' with the ring is easy - we need them to understand that they need to *do* something with the ring. Leo even went through a phase of 'formally' presenting me with the ring (obedience retrieve) or jumping up and trying to put it in MY mouth Does the peg come out of the base??? Mine doesn't??? The first response *should* be to remove the ring - you just need to get that click in a little earlier - I might have to go back and re-visit the starting stages ;)..... click for the interactions with the ring *on* the pole - but try and click BEFORE the ring comes off the pole..... then try and delay the click to the point where the dog is lifting it off - you click and it 'falls' on the pole..... this bit is really hard to explain - you want to reward interaction and picking up the ring, but you shortly want to graduate to the 'drop' of the ring on the pole..... Maybe i'll need to get the camera out again tonight Are you able to video it? Maybe I can help further that way??? Part 1: (*REMEMBER the click timing is Waaay out on this one!!) Part 2: ETA - I forgot to say - have the quoit base between your feet - if your dog naturally retrieves and 'drops' stuff at your feet - this makes it easier Edited August 9, 2007 by leopuppy04 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whatevah Posted August 9, 2007 Share Posted August 9, 2007 http://www.dogtrick.741.com/moses_put_a_hoop_on_a_stick.htm http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qORZVcGQ_WQ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squeak Posted August 9, 2007 Author Share Posted August 9, 2007 Thanks leopuppy. I have just had a few "light bulb" moments from reading your post, which is good. Okay, Stormy is NOT a natural retriever. And the pole comes out of the base, and no she is not picking it up to get a reward, she is doing it because it is FUN!!! I think I will have to get some glue and glue it into the base. So, it looks like we go back to the beginning again and see if I can time my click BEFORE she gets the ring off the pole... I think I have some work ahead of me on that one. I think that she has the idea that she needs to DO something with the ring, as she will throw it in the air and then look expectantly at me, as if to say "weeelll..." I don't have access to a video camera (but working on it ), so we'll just have to make do this way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squeak Posted August 9, 2007 Author Share Posted August 9, 2007 (edited) Okay - just had a short session with Stormy. Went right back to the beginning, and I think we might be starting to make some progress. Having said that, boy does my timing need work!!! Started with the ring on the pole. Clicked for touching, then clicked for lifting. Tried to click with her lifting it off and having the ring drop back on, but missed quite a few and she had moved it too far. But I do understand what you are saying, so there is some hope. Also, there was one stage that she lifted the ring off and placed it beside the post and focussed on it. I had actually missed clicking this one, and she seemed to be trying to work out what to do next. She then actually lifted the ring up again toward the pole!!! Not on the pole, but progress. Guess who got a heap of praise and a jackpot! So, many thanks to you leopuppy, I think that we are now headed in the right direction. I know every dog is different, but can I ask you how long it took to teach this one to Leo??? Also, thank you for reminding me that I have a NRM that I can use. It is amazing the things that we forget sometimes, isn't it? Worked well with getting her not to lift the post - she still tried and succeeded occasionally, but actually started to think about whether it was the post or ring she should be working with to get a reward Edited August 9, 2007 by squeak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted August 9, 2007 Share Posted August 9, 2007 - Go Squeak! Sounds as though you had a successful night!!!! Sounds like you are going along the right way - play around a little with your estimation of clicking when on the pole - this one was hardest for *me* to get the timing right, but once I did, we were smooth sailing. I'll have to have another play around and see how I taught it - isn't it funny how some things become 'auto pilot' after a while! No problems - any other questions - ask away and i'll see if I can help out . I can't really say how long it took as I would bring it out, do a bit of work and then not bring it out again for a month or so (so learning disappeared to an extent ). It didn't take him long at all *once* he understood that the pole and ring had something to do with each other :rofl: Yes, when I talk to online friends about training - they'll say to me "how come you didn't do this" or "in your video you are doing this" and I am usually - oh? I didn't even realise!!!! ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squeak Posted August 10, 2007 Author Share Posted August 10, 2007 Thanks for the encouragement leopuppy. I sometimes think I expect too much of Stormy. We adopted her 12 months ago from the RSPCA. We think she is now about 2 years old. When I look back, I remember the first week where I felt that if the only things I could get her to do was walk on a loose lead and stay off the furniture, it would be a major achievement. Now, 12 months later, she understand heels, sit, drop (work in progress still), shake hands, touch, puts her paw on my knee on command and we're working on getting her to ring a bell. I guess what I am saying, is that she has come soooo far in 12 months, and there is no way I would have dreamt that it might even be possible to teach her this one. The mere fact that I am trying to and she is trying to work with me is amazing... even if we don't end up achieving it. Sorry, gloat over Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted August 11, 2007 Share Posted August 11, 2007 Brag away!!! *virtual pat on the back to you*! I remember talking to you last year when you just got her! I think it is great that you have already come so far with her! WELL DONE!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted August 15, 2007 Share Posted August 15, 2007 Hiya Squeak I thought I better brush up on 'exactly' how I taught the quoits so that I could explain it better for you. I was wrong - I don't click the 'drop' of the ring till much later. Initially I start just clicking the pick up of the ring. If the dog lifts it completely off the pole and the ring 'happens' to fall on the pole, I click and jackpot. I try as hard as possible to build up an association between the ring and pole :rolleyes:...... hence why the ring starts on the pole. If the dog seems to constantly be missing getting the ring on the pole -I go back a step and reward the dog for picking up the ring earlier - again to try and build up the association. I was playing around with Kinta last night (a quoit newbie) and it went really well... she is already lifting and dropping on the pole..... Would you like me to take a video for some visual? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squeak Posted August 15, 2007 Author Share Posted August 15, 2007 Thanks - I would love to see some video. I think I understand what you are saying, but seeing it always makes it so much clearer. We're still at the ring on pole stage, and I wouldn't be surprised if we stay there for quite some time. Slowly, slowly with Stormy. At least she isn't throwing the rings around the room quite so much! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted August 23, 2007 Share Posted August 23, 2007 Hiya Squeak. Sorry it took so long - here are the vids of Kinta doing the Quoits - sessions 2&3. As you can see she gets a little bit TOO eager at times and needs to learn to put the quoits ON the pole - not pull them off. This was the bit that Leo got a little confused with also.... Funny how you can't remember how you rectified it. LOL.... I do remember putting my finger ontop of the pole so the dog can't pull the quoit off and trying to click the drop.... but i'll get back to you on that for the next session.... but feel free to have a watch and ask away Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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