Method Of Training To Use?

[TNT]

Hi all...

I'm only new to this whole dog training thing- so bear with me. I have owned dogs before but have never been to formal training with them. But with two ACD's- it wasnt an option to not train!

There are two very good clubs in the area- one trains with check chains- one with food.

Im neither opposed or in favour of one particular method- hence my confusion.

We currently train with a check chain. The check chain isnt used as a punishment- no jerking etc on the chain. We are encouraged to give verbal praise constantly to the dogs. However, if I talk too much my pup just wants to jump up and play- she goes nuts with the slightest bit of attention so I usually wait for the exercise over command then give her big pats.

One of the instructors at the other club was the instructor at the puppy pre-school- we tarined with food and no doubt its very effective. I'm led to believe that most agiity/flyball is taught with food and its obviously effective. My youngest pup is proving to be a bit more of a challenge and wont do anything- not even with food.

So I just wanted to know what training methods from experience have been most effective? Is their any harm training using both methods, say one day check, one day food?

sorry for the long winded question- all advice guidance would be greatly appreciated.!

[Erny]

I use a balance of the two ..... ie negative and positive. But ultimately I use whatever method best suits the dog and the exercise/skill I'm trying to achieve, at the time.

In sports (eg. flyball; agility) it is all positive ........... no negatives. No check chain required or even desired there. I don't like dogs on check chains when going over agility simply because the dog could receive an accidental check from the chain either by slipping and the handler's knee jerk reaction to grab up the lead to stop them falling (eg off the dog walk) or from catching the chain on any part of the equipment.

I would not be inclined to designate alternative days to a specific training method - this is likely to be very confusing to your dog.

[Kavik]

Check chains, clickers and food are all tools you can use in training, methods vary but it is certainly possible to use all of them. I would suggest picking a method and club and not to chop and change too much as this could confuse the dog. Look at the club and how they train and see if you think this would be suitable for you and your dog, depending on what you want to achieve and the temperament of the dog and what you feel comfortable with. You can change if you decide the method is not working for you.

I like to train at clubs that allow you to use whichever motivator works best for your dog - whether it is food, toys, or praise. I use a clicker for some things (attention, targeting, retrieving, some agility, tricks etc) and not others (herding for example) and I use a correction type collar for obedience work and general walking (mostly martingale style collars).

[dogdude]

Using either or both properly will give you a similar result. A check chain will not teach a dog anything if it is not jerked on when needed, but i'm sure you will work that out in the coming weeks. A check needs to be as hard as necessary to gain your dogs attention, otherwise you are wasting your time.This will be light on some dogs, and heavier on others.

Either method used the wrong way can give you undesirable results. If you learn both methods, you will end up a better trainer for it, as going to extremes in either will usually give you problems.

[TNT]

thanks for the quick replies...I wouldnt leave a check chain on a dog for agility- too many risks! just concerned that my dogs may get confused if we do obedience training with a check and then agility/flyball etc with food...most clubs seem to be all for one way of the other...most clubs around here you choose the method by which club you use and its hard to make that choice when you dont know enough to see what method works best!

[laffi]

its hard to make that choice when you dont know enough to see what method works best!

I don't think there is such a thing as "the best" method.

I use clicker training because my dogs are responsive to it.

Both of the methods you mentioned rely on simple principles of how dogs learn:

- you provide a positive stimulus for a desired action and the probability of the dog to repeat the action is going to increase. Example: dog sits, you give a treat, dog will try to sit again

- you provide a negative stimulus for an undesired action and the probability of the dog to repeat this action is going to decrease. Example: dog pulls, you use the check chain, dog will try to avoid the jerk and stop pulling

[Poodle wrangler]

Have you been to watch each of the clubs train?

Check them both out and see which seems a better "fit" for you. Some clubs don't allow check chains. If they're allowed, there's no reason you can't use both a check chain and food rewards. Changing methods from from day-to-day will just slow your dog's learning and confuse him.

[anthony mazzeri]

Have a look at some of the free video clip excerpts from the DVDs for sale on Karen Pryor's clickertraining.com to see if you think it will work for you. If your cattle dog is smart and focussed on you (ie jumping up at you) then clicker training sounds like it would be ideal.

I bought a couple of the DVDs before I got my new Cocker pup. I've only had him a few days now (8.5 weeks old now) and he's already doing the sit and drop after only three 5-minute lessons starting yesterday. Awkward puppy sits and drops, but still! Considering they were the first ever clicker lessons for me too, I'm mightily impressed so far by this method.

[MonElite]

I would find a club that uses a mixture of positive and some corrective methods with more positive input.

Dog training should be fun for the dog, regardless if its learning to drop stay or go over a jump.

Food, toys and/or praise shuld be used in training, IMHO on any dog.

[TNT]

thanks- Ive seen an example of clicker training in action- but my OH was intially worried that we would have to take food everywhere with us- on the other hand- I think that the fact that they are high energy pups it might work better to maintain focus. The check chain does work- but I think being an ACD the whole forcing into position thing just really doesnt work that well- these dogs are meant to fight back- and I think this my be an issue with the 3 month old as even with the other pup he wont back down.

The club I currently go to will not allow food on the ground anywhere whilst training- and the other club wont allow check chains.

might have to look a bit further for a club...

[Kavik]

The club that does not allow check chains will probably allow a martingale or limited slip collar, which will tighten but only so far unlike the check chain which tightens all the way.

There are many different brands of martingale including

Black Dog

http://www.blackdog.net.au/collars.php

K9 Force also sells martingales with a chain component which can be helpful with dogs that don't respond as well to the all webbing Black Dog ones.

[MonElite]

TNT sounds as both clubs are a bit extreme, Id find something in between.

But if I was to choose the one out of those two Id choose the food one.