Training Dogs And People

[Mrsdog]

Our club trains Sunday mornings, and if you are getting up and taking your dog to training on a cold Sunday morning, 8.30am, then I think you are wonderful and am certainly going to do my best to make your training session worthwhile to you and your dog.

We are a large all breeds dog training club with a diversity of abilities - both dog and handler. The majority of people just want a well behaved dog that they can take anywhere and be proud of it. The ones who find they can do a little more and have a responsive dog are the ones who might end up in the OB ring trialling their dogs. Sometimes you start out as just wanting a few manners for your dog and somewhere along the way you get hooked and before you know it you are OB training, getting interested in dog sports such as Flyball and Agility, and (don't laugh please) even doing some doggy dancing. Of course obedience training is the basis for all these other things but it is usually worthwhile to let people know that these are all available. If we keep people interested then they will keep training their dogs and everyone benefits.

There is just so much fun you can have with your dog, and so much to learn, I do hope I live to be a hundred.

Noels.

[dogdude]

Nice post MrsD

[cazzaritch]

We joined a club 2 weeks ago with our two labradors, and we are really enjoying it.

We are having a little trouble with the boys as they are way to focussed on one another than OH and myself. This has made for some very embarrasing little panic attacks out of them both, the instructor just ignored us and carried on. In a way this was a good thing and I was totally embarrased by my little monster howling and yipping and carrying on, but I would have really appreciated a little extra help. I do appreciate that if they stopped teaching every time something like this happened, no one would ever get any instruction!!

Next week, I will be asking for some advice on how to get our dogs to focus a little more on us.

So far, our intructors have been really nice and encouraging during the 2 classes we have been too, and we plan to keep going, i would love it if one (or both) of our pups are good enough to trial.

Mrsdog - I think its your club we go to - keep up the good work

[TangerineDream]

A lot of instructors are taught how to train dogs, but aren't taught how to train handlers......a lot of instructors become instructors because they have successfully trained their dog to a particular level and are seen as 'capable'.

I did a lot of reading on dog psychology when I was training to become an instructor, and being a trained primary teacher helped with the psychology of human learning...but I did notice a number of instructors didn't understand the psychology of learning (for humans). I also jointly ran an instructor's training class for the Dobe Club some years ago and made sure that we spent a couple of sessions just on just that....and the trainers that we turned out that year were very successful!

One rule that I stand by....never criticise the handler...always find a way of turning each negative into a positive.

[skip]

I did obedience to get my dogs socialised/under control so I could start agility. The teacher was really trying to give advice on trialling. She does say that anyone that gets up early every week ( specially on Sunday ) to train must be keen to trial. I do appreciate how hard she tries to help.

However I might drive her to distraction I am not intending to trial. I was in trouble a little as my dogs used to swing their bums out in heel. This is mainly as they are small and they are desperate to look me in the eye. So as they look up, the bum goes out. I could have been more disciplined about heeling. I did work on it but they don't heel as close as some others. But their focus is great and I find them really easy to teach agility.

Anyway Reddii

Is this like a friend of mine who does natural horsemanship. She has obtained a high level and teaches me with all the patience in the world. And she is so patient and consistant with the horses. But at work she is completely different in the way she relates to some of her co-workers. Hang on! That sounds a bit like me too. I have all the time in the world for my dogs but teaching some staff I have currently has me pulling my hair out.

I notice most handlers /dogs pass through but there are always a few who keep coming back. That must be rewarding to see your pupils go on to do well.

[Reddii]

Our club trains Sunday mornings, and if you are getting up and taking your dog to training on a cold Sunday morning, 8.30am, then I think you are wonderful and am certainly going to do my best to make your training session worthwhile to you and your dog.

We are a large all breeds dog training club with a diversity of abilities - both dog and handler. The majority of people just want a well behaved dog that they can take anywhere and be proud of it. The ones who find they can do a little more and have a responsive dog are the ones who might end up in the OB ring trialling their dogs. Sometimes you start out as just wanting a few manners for your dog and somewhere along the way you get hooked and before you know it you are OB training, getting interested in dog sports such as Flyball and Agility, and (don't laugh please) even doing some doggy dancing. Of course obedience training is the basis for all these other things but it is usually worthwhile to let people know that these are all available. If we keep people interested then they will keep training their dogs and everyone benefits.

There is just so much fun you can have with your dog, and so much to learn, I do hope I live to be a hundred.

Noels.

Spot on - that's exactly what happened to me!! Started with a commericial training school just wanting to sort out a few behavioural issues in a pup who's life was cut way too short by health issues (bloody puppy farmers!) and have ended up a member of 4 different clubs with two other doggies. (No, don't have a life with 4 different events to go to some weeks.)

It's still about fun, but we have one eye on trialling in the next 12 months or so and will definitely be racing in flyball before too long. (older dog doesn't like obedience so don't see the point in going past where she is now when she is so much better and enjoys faster sports more - younger dog is really enjoying obedience and shows promise.)

[Reddii]

A lot of instructors are taught how to train dogs, but aren't taught how to train handlers......a lot of instructors become instructors because they have successfully trained their dog to a particular level and are seen as 'capable'.

That's exactly my point in my post. It's like anything - just because you are good at something doesn't mean you can teach it. Great to see you've put some time, thought and effort into this one!

[JulesP]

Actually I think that people that aren't naturally good, make better teachers sometimes!!

[Reddii]

Actually I think that people that aren't naturally good, make better teachers sometimes!!

I agree, if you do something intuitively it is unlikely you have a deep understanding of every step of the process. I know with a couple of things I sub-consciously or otherwise take 'short-cuts' (not necessarily a bad thing), but if you really have to work to get to a level of competency it is more likely you have done it step by step and understand each step of the way and makes it easier to explain.

Classic example - I find it really hard to have a younger (under 25 y.o.) person explain technology to me because they have grown up with it and it is second nature. An older (not old!) person say, 40+ who has not grown up up with it, but understands it stands a much better chance of getting through to someone working from a low base of knowledge.

[poodlefan]

Rhaps:

I think it's also important for instructors to remember that some people use training as a means of social interaction and progression is not so important for them.

I don't care if it's not important to them. I do care if they don't progress because their dogs get bored and frustrated. I hear this all the time in both obedience and agility ... "oh, I'm not interested in trialling".

"Fine" I say.. "but that does not mean I will accept a lower standard of attention or effort from you". What a person chooses to do and not to do with their dog is immaterial. How they participate and train their dog in class is important to me and for other class members as I have to share my time. If they can't show enough respect to actually try, then I'm sure they can find professional trainers who are happy to charge to be ignored.

I have to say that nearly every agility participant who's used the "I'm not interested in trialling" line with me and who's stuck with training has actually gone on to give it a go. Trialling is not all about competition - it's about testing whether you can actually do what you've trained your dog to do in a controlled situaton and with an objective evaluation. I like to have a goal with my training, beating other people has bugger all to do with it. Just as well!

Edited August 8, 2007 by poodlefan

[Poodle wrangler]

...

We are having a little trouble with the boys as they are way to focussed on one another than OH and myself. This has made for some very embarrasing little panic attacks out of them both, the instructor just ignored us and carried on. In a way this was a good thing and I was totally embarrased by my little monster howling and yipping and carrying on, but I would have really appreciated a little extra help. I do appreciate that if they stopped teaching every time something like this happened, no one would ever get any instruction!!

Next week, I will be asking for some advice on how to get our dogs to focus a little more on us. ....

We had a couple who brought both their dogs, but they ended up leaving the older, better behaved one at home. The younger BC was so attached to the other dog, that even if the dog was out of view, she would cry and be inconsolable.

Not saying your dogs are at that stage, but perhaps try being on opposite ends of the class (if you haven't already) and ask the instructor for advice before class, as you say.

I learned the hard way that I'd forgotten to get our younger dog used to being by himself and he barked 30 minutes, non-stop, when we had to do so. I'm now getting him used to time alone thru the day...

[Poodle wrangler]

Who wants to struggle with their dog every week and be told to do more work at home? At least they were coming to class and doing something. They just stay in beginners if they can't do the exercises.

But then "beginners" banks up because people aren't moving through. Then the class size gets too large and the class attendees complain.

Apart from which, class instruction is exactly that - where the instructor can show and explain; where you can have a practice so that the instructor can see you have the gist of what you need to do; where the instructor can tell and show you where or what you are doing wrong; and so that you can take that tuition home and practice it through the week with your new (or refreshed) knowledge in your head.

As an instructor and on behalf of the dogs, I find it disheartening if people only practice training exercises when they are at class. Because this means that what goes on in between times is an inconsistency and that's not fair on the dog .... certainly confusing.......

Fair enough. At our club those that didn't practice gave up altogether. Too cold and damp for the half-hearted ...only about 1/4 of the original class left at the end.

I'm sure I've heard our instructor mutter, "We're only here to train well-mannered pets", to soothe herself, I think .

She does agility, primarily, so "Heel" is followed by a happy "WhooHoo" (as in come on have fun heeling, dogs) .

I'm glad there IS a local club, I heard it nearly died out due to lack of willing instructors .

[Mrsdog]

Cazzaritch, come see me on Sunday after your class. I am presently instructing the Canine Mans Best Friend class and this week is all about focus. So much easier to train your dog if you have his attention. I can give you a few simple things to go on with that will help you so much. Life WAS meant to be easy. You will find me on the oval just in front of the vetting table.

Also don't forget to come along on Saturday and see our first Flyball competition held at Waratah Park. Australia's fastest team of flyball dogs has entered, so it will be really exciting. Racing will be happening all day, so if you have time pop along.

Noels.

[cazzaritch]

Cazzaritch, come see me on Sunday after your class. I am presently instructing the Canine Mans Best Friend class and this week is all about focus. So much easier to train your dog if you have his attention. I can give you a few simple things to go on with that will help you so much. Life WAS meant to be easy. You will find me on the oval just in front of the vetting table.

Also don't forget to come along on Saturday and see our first Flyball competition held at Waratah Park. Australia's fastest team of flyball dogs has entered, so it will be really exciting. Racing will be happening all day, so if you have time pop along.

Noels.

Thanks Mrsdog, I will pop over. I took Andy for a walk on his own tonight and John took Lou and Andy heeled beautifully!! Hooray!!! I managed to have a piece of cheese in my hand - that had him focussed!!!

We will keep up the individual training and then see how they go in class on Sunday together.

Also - where is Waratah Park?

[squeak]

Waratah Park/Oval is where Sutherland Shire Dog Club train - just slightly south of Sutherland Leisure Centre and almost opposite Loftus TAFE on the Old Princes Hwy.

[cazzaritch]

Waratah Park/Oval is where Sutherland Shire Dog Club train - just slightly south of Sutherland Leisure Centre and almost opposite Loftus TAFE on the Old Princes Hwy.

Thanks squeak, I am hoping to have time to pop down for a bit.

[ILFC]

Well, I think it is more disheartening when you don't get the results you can see other people getting and sometimes might take comments a bit personally? My club is staffed by volunteers and I appreciate every moment I am there because I took an absolute feral there and now I have a really nice, friendly canine citizen- that can go anywhere. I can't see us trialling due to health issues (doggy) but I'm trying really hard to get us into the top class. I love learning about dogs- the hour passes so quickly. Dog instructors are way way way less harsh than horsey ones IMO. I feel confident in my dog and the OH and I keep saying remember when? and oh- that's right he doesn't do that anymore and having a laugh. I reckon you make heaps of mistakes with your first dog though. I have anyway.

[Reddii]

Well, I think it is more disheartening when you don't get the results you can see other people getting and sometimes might take comments a bit personally? My club is staffed by volunteers and I appreciate every moment I am there because I took an absolute feral there and now I have a really nice, friendly canine citizen- that can go anywhere. I can't see us trialling due to health issues (doggy) but I'm trying really hard to get us into the top class. I love learning about dogs- the hour passes so quickly. Dog instructors are way way way less harsh than horsey ones IMO. I feel confident in my dog and the OH and I keep saying remember when? and oh- that's right he doesn't do that anymore and having a laugh. I reckon you make heaps of mistakes with your first dog though. I have anyway.

It's not that I'm not getting results - both my dogs are improving week by week, it was just a comment on styles and personalities. Never had experience with horsey ones so I can't comment.

On a VERY positive note last night I had an awesome trainer take the class at agility. My 14 month BC is too quick for my handling skill - so quick that everyone comments on it - even those with other BC's they consider quick. As a result I tend to confuse her a bit as we move into more advanced (as opposed to advanced) skills. Instead of telling me I was confusing the dog and needed to get it together this person was great, she turned all my mistakes around and worked with me and Xena to improve what we were doing as a team.

Another thing I should have mentioned - most trainers seem to be a bit harsher until they realise how little experience I have, but how much effort is going in to it. After that they really are helpful - just interesting how different personalities achieve different goals.

Poodle Wrangler - I thought you were talking about me for a minute when you mentioned the couple with 2 dogs! We've banned our little girl from obedience for exactly that carry on. For a start she hates it even when she is with me (focussed on me, not our younger dog), but when she is with OH she is impossible. Won't even get out of class one, despite having the ability to do level 4 with me - go figure. (last night at agility she held her stay for 10 minutes while we packed up the equipment, even with other dogs running about and me out of sight so it's not like she is out of control, she just doesn't have the same spark as when we are doing fast paced stuff.) The last straw was the night she escaped from OH during an on lead class and came looking for me. You know that horrible feeling you get for the person who's dog has broken a stay and is streaking across the field, well that quickly turned to when I realised who's dog it was - good thing was that she came straight away and sat at my feet looking up as if to say - was I good, did I do good . Suffice to say OH came clean and said her heart wasn't really in it so now I just take the dogs their seperate ways for training. Can be very embarassing and annoying depending on where you are in the situation.

[Poodle wrangler]

Poodle Wrangler - I thought you were talking about me for a minute when you mentioned the couple with 2 dogs! We've banned our little girl from obedience for exactly that carry on. For a start she hates it even when she is with me (focussed on me, not our younger dog), but when she is with OH she is impossible. Won't even get out of class one, despite having the ability to do level 4 with me - go figure. (last night at agility she held her stay for 10 minutes while we packed up the equipment, even with other dogs running about and me out of sight so it's not like she is out of control, she just doesn't have the same spark as when we are doing fast paced stuff.) The last straw was the night she escaped from OH during an on lead class and came looking for me. You know that horrible feeling you get for the person who's dog has broken a stay and is streaking across the field, well that quickly turned to when I realised who's dog it was - good thing was that she came straight away and sat at my feet looking up as if to say - was I good, did I do good . Suffice to say OH came clean and said her heart wasn't really in it so now I just take the dogs their seperate ways for training. Can be very embarassing and annoying depending on where you are in the situation.

Nah. I'm in another state .

Last night another dog left class for exactly the same reason. They couldn't be on the same oval. Instructor actually suggested they needed to come to training in separate cars, avoiding each other, so one dog didn't realise the other was there (the oval's pretty big).

I don't take my older dog to training anymore, so I haven't seen whether or not mine would be the same.

But younger dog barked for 30 minutes, leaving a chicken carcass untouched, when I took older dog for an appointment last week . He wasn't used to being alone AT ALL. My fault . Used to siblings as pup, then another dog. I'm working on leaving him with a chewy raw bone for 1/2 hour-1 hour alone, so he gets used to it gradually when I'm home.

Hope others can learn from our mistakes: Get your dogs used to being on their own - away from both humans and other K9s.

[Reddii]

Nah. I'm in another state .

Last night another dog left class for exactly the same reason. They couldn't be on the same oval. Instructor actually suggested they needed to come to training in separate cars, avoiding each other, so one dog didn't realise the other was there (the oval's pretty big).

I don't take my older dog to training anymore, so I haven't seen whether or not mine would be the same.

But younger dog barked for 30 minutes, leaving a chicken carcass untouched, when I took older dog for an appointment last week . He wasn't used to being alone AT ALL. My fault . Used to siblings as pup, then another dog. I'm working on leaving him with a chewy raw bone for 1/2 hour-1 hour alone, so he gets used to it gradually when I'm home.

Hope others can learn from our mistakes: Get your dogs used to being on their own - away from both humans and other K9s.

I'm lucky in that regard, I can leave either of them alone, it's only when they are aware the other one is having fun or in the case of Xena she knows I am somewhere there and potentially having fun with CK that there is a problem. I can do obedience practice in the yard with either of them and leave the other nearby in their run and the other will be quiet and Xena (14 months) will let me do pretty much anything with CK - as long as she can see, but when Xena comes out to practice her agility stuff and the tugg toy makes an appearance all hell breaks loose!

Tonight is flyball night and Mr 9 months who is still too young comes along first of all to meet and greet the other dogs (encouraged by others who love him and have been watching his progress) and to give him a bit of a run before training - we do some healing exercises and a few other fun things. Miss 14 months (the banned one) then comes out of the car/crate and he goes back in. Last week he was better - barked for 40 minutes of the hour, down from 45! Hoping this week for another small improvement.