Training Dogs And People

[Reddii]

I'm pretty new to this whole doggy thing having only been involved for almost 12 months. It's only really in the last 3 or 4 months that I've become involved in clubs (flyball, obedience and agility) and I've met some great people and learned a LOT. Before I get people jump on me for what I am about to say I need to make it clear that I really appreciate people who give up their own time to train others to train their dogs and without them my dog experience and my dogs' experience would be about 10% of what it is now.

That said, does anyone else wonder why we spend so much time working on how we train our dogs, making sure it is a fun experience for them, as little negativity as possible etc etc only to have trainers work quite differently with the handlers.

EG: "Well obviously you haven't done as much work as you should have" - actually yes, I have, my dog is perfect in situation a, but doesn't translate it from that to situation b and I don't know how to help her.........

NO, you need to give an instruction, not just jerk on the lead.......actually you missed my hand signal, the dog got it and did actually sit.......

There have been others and none of it really bothers me because I work in an environment that hardens me to pretty much anything/anyone. That said I am still sensitive to criticism and it makes we work all that much harder because I hate to fail, but I was wondering last night on the way home, how many people do well meaning volunteers drive away with training techniques they wouldn't dream of using on their dogs?

Anyone else thought/felt this way after a bad night at training?

[leopuppy04]

YES!

When I first started agility with my boy - he was a holy terror - barking, lunging, not paying attention and just being plain silly!!! I felt so inferior that I wondered 'how' this could be fun - but I am glad I persisted as it *is* fun now .

I've come across a lot of trainers that are abrupt saying - 'your dog needs this' or 'your dog needs that'... likewise I was told off for telling my dog off for breaking his sit.... I asked him to sit when I filled out some forms and he kept pulling me to say hi to other dogs - he *knows* this is unacceptable, but I was told that I shouldn't tell him off due to different circumstance etc. Yes, I agree with that 'wholeheartedly' - but if my dog is being a complete git and has 'crossed the line' I will proceed to tell him what I think of it

I guess this has helped me a little in terms of instructing to others. I am mindful of how it feels to feel like you are getting nowhere or having a dog that is not co-operating.... so I will never say 'you haven't done enough work' or 'you are doing it wrong'.....

I usually phrase it such as 'next time... 'this' may help you get your dog to respond faster'... 'this is a different environment for your dog.... perhaps you need to lower the bar a little to allow it success'....

I try my *hardest* to always make 'constructive criticism' and not as though the handler is 'stuffing the dog up'.... likewise, I did come down hard on my class on sunday and tell them that they really need to work on their 'sits' and 'drops'

But, from your instructors point of view - it is hard to see 'everyone' in the class so we may miss something you did.... but we try ;).

I try and run my class the same as I train dogs - 10 positives for every negative

But yes, I have been in your position before and just felt down right disheartened after a training session

[Poodle wrangler]

I got in trouble for talking in class: "No gold star for you!" . Yes, it's normally rude, but the instructor had told as to relax with our dogs and was spending about 10 minutes helping another class member 1:1. I blame the handsome Belgian Shepherd I was admiring for distracting me .

I've had the occasional, "Oh, you've not been doing your homework" and most often it's the weeks I HAVE actually done it.

I try to get there early and give my dog a run before class. It really helps settle him as it doesn't seem to matter how much exercise he has earlier in the day, he's excited and takes some time to settle once we get there. Ever seen a poodle both bounce at heel?

As you say, they're volunteering their time and I don't let that sort of thing worry me. Our beginner's class had about 75% attrition rate, though, which is a shame for the dogs. I don't think training is for everyone- let's face it, classes are often a bit boring and some instructors are better than others.

Who wants to struggle with their dog every week and be told to do more work at home? At least they were coming to class and doing something. They just stay in beginners if they can't do the exercises.

About dog's doing well only outside of training classes: One of our better instructors used to say, "That just means they need MORE training!" .. i.e. they need to be able to do it with distractions.

[MonElite]

There is probably a lot of truth in what you say but Ill give you a different perspective.

I have a 60 yo man in class with a very large dog.

The dog weights well over 50kg and is simply FAT. The dog is under 12 months old. The dog has undesended testicle. The dog is dog agro. The dog is high drive and strong nerved.

All in all - wrong dog for the owner. Lovely dog, lovely man - he really is and is trying very hard (but really has no idea), just shouldnt be together.

So I say week after week, dont feed your dog before training he will take the treats better, the dog gets breakfast and lunch, and we train at 3pm.

I say desex your dog, not only becouse I belive it might calm him down a bit but also becouse he has an undesended testicle. Oh no, thats wrong.

I say get your dog away from the class and do x y z - no he wants to do it near the class.

I say show the dog that there is fun and pleasure in training and FFS stop slapping his face when he misbehaves, its your fault he does.

I have done this each week for 2 months now, at least he doesnt feed the dog now on the day of training and doesnt slap the dog on the face - in front of me, but when I cought him doing it elswhere when he didnt see me, I sure did loose it and gave him one of those rude remarks that us volounteer instructors can pull off. Not to mention I gave him a pretty rude rundown on how he should stop thinking like a male and take the dog to the vet to heve him snipped.

Im waiting for the day when his dog pisses on him, maybe this will help.

[dogdude]

Good teachers are hard to find in any field, and dog school is no different. Some people think that "taking charge" is teaching etc etc. The truth is that really skillfull dog guru's are very thin on the ground. Skillfull dog guru's that are good teachers are even harder to find.

We do live in the communication age now, so thankfully plenty of info is freely accessable via internet, reading and seminars.

As members of dog obedience clubs who pay next to no fee's, you cant really expect to recieve guru quality advice, delivered to you by an expert people person.

As an instructor in years gone by, I can tell you that most people do not do the work, and the few that do are normally the ones to progress quickly. I have seen some dogs attending for 5 years in some cases, because the owners think that one Sunday a week or fortnight is enough training, so it is usually the first line of thought when an instructor is trying to work out why a dog is not progressing.

The best instructors do more talking (and listening) than drilling exercises during class. If you find one of these, use them!

If you don't have one of these people at your club, remember that there are more benefits to an obedience club membership than just knowledge.

If it is dog sports or instructing that you want to do, then you are going to have to look everywhere else to expand your expertise anyway.

[roxy's mum]

This is a great topic that you have raised!!!

I have just completed my theory portion of the instuctor class at my local dog obedience club, so I guess I can see this from both sides of the fence.

As a handler in the past, I could see areas where a lot of the instructors where too harsh on the handlers. But at the same time I can see this from an instructor point of view now.

I think the biggest problem facing instructors is the time contraints and also class sizes. It's very hard to provide individual advise to handlers when you have a full class to teach.

I can tell you that most people do not do the work, and the few that do are normally the ones to progress quickly. I have seen some dogs attending for 5 years in some cases, because the owners think that one Sunday a week or fortnight is enough training, so it is usually the first line of thought when an instructor is trying to work out why a dog is not progressing.

I totally agree with this comment from dogdude.... this is where it becomes extremely difficult!!!

[Guest rhapsodical78]

I agree. I think it's important to say things in a positive way so as not to alienate the clientele. It's no fun if you're being reprimanded all the time.

I think it's also important for instructors to remember that some people use training as a means of social interaction and progression is not so important for them. The best thing to do is pick out the ones who really want to make a go of it and be as helpful with them as possible.

[Kavik]

When instructing, I try not to direct comments at particular people - I don't think I've ever said to anyone that they didn't do their homework. I have a difficult dog and understand how frustrating classes can sometimes be. I was told that when instructing, to make comments general to the whole class instead of singling people out.

I also ask what exercises people are having trouble with, so we can go through them again, and I will help someone who looks like they are struggling.

At times instructing can be frustrating, as people don't always listen to what you say, and some people are determined that their dogs are no good, and have a bad attitude to training, you have to wonder why they are there?

When I take my own dogs in class, I don't mind some constructive criticism as we are there to improve and often they will pick something up that you don't notice or can't see you are doing. I have had some instructors who made me feel awful - especially with my dog aggro Kelpie cross girl - but the club I am at now has lovely instructors and even put up with me doing some strange things

[Poodle wrangler]

There is probably a lot of truth in what you say but Ill give you a different perspective.

I have a 60 yo man in class with a very large dog.

The dog weights well over 50kg and is simply FAT. The dog is under 12 months old. The dog has undesended testicle. The dog is dog agro. The dog is high drive and strong nerved.

All in all - wrong dog for the owner. Lovely dog, lovely man - he really is and is trying very hard (but really has no idea), just shouldnt be together.

So I say week after week, dont feed your dog before training he will take the treats better, the dog gets breakfast and lunch, and we train at 3pm.

I say desex your dog, not only becouse I belive it might calm him down a bit but also becouse he has an undesended testicle. Oh no, thats wrong.

I say get your dog away from the class and do x y z - no he wants to do it near the class.

I say show the dog that there is fun and pleasure in training and FFS stop slapping his face when he misbehaves, its your fault he does.

I have done this each week for 2 months now, at least he doesnt feed the dog now on the day of training and doesnt slap the dog on the face - in front of me, but when I cought him doing it elswhere when he didnt see me, I sure did loose it and gave him one of those rude remarks that us volounteer instructors can pull off. Not to mention I gave him a pretty rude rundown on how he should stop thinking like a male and take the dog to the vet to heve him snipped.

Im waiting for the day when his dog pisses on him, maybe this will help.

, but that would be frustrating .

Many of our old class obviously did nothing through the week as well as having not much idea about dog behaviour in the first place. Not that I'm perfect.

[Reddii]

Interesting comments - particularly from those of you who are trainers. Please don't get me wrong, I don't expect anything other than what I get and it would be frustrating to see owners and dogs with potential come and go. overall I have nothing but admiration for the people who have taught me so much and have helped me mould two fantastic BC's who have more potential than their handler!

My comments were more that it is interesting how we all (I find myself doing it with people I work with) are so 'on to it' in terms of how we communicate with our dogs, yet when we are training people it is a totally different m.o.

For the record - we do the work - at least 10 minutes with each dog every day specifically on what we are working on that week then on our walks we do stays etc in safe places just to reinforce the training with distraction. The young man also gets to walk around the flyball and agility fields when he comes along to our girl's lessons for a loot at what he is in for.

I guess it was a bit harsh to suggest the instructor should have picked up the hand signal I used, but the comments I've received have been a bit over the top from time to time. I'm just feeling a bit down after a challenging night with my 9 month old BC boy last night at obedience - he was good this morning, but my ego is still a bit bruised. (How's that for honesty!)

Let's hope tomorrow night is a bit better with my little girl at agility.

ETA: Compared to many I have two dream dogs who at 9 & 14 months are fantastic. Xena (14 months) is almost doing full runs at flyball and is going well at agility - about to move from beginners into novice. CK at 9 months is still very much a puppy and easily distracted, but is in level 3 at obedience and enjoys it more every time we go - all thanks to some fantastic trainers I have met along the way!

Edited August 7, 2007 by Reddii

[MonElite]

Being on the receiving end I have had trainers/instructors have me in tears.

Not once..........

[JulesP]

It is a strange thing about dog instructors and horse ones that they do this rude thing. I don't care if someone is a volunteer, there is not reason to be rude. They only tend to do it once to me as I usually have something to say back!

[TNT]

I got into trouble at my obedience club on the weekend- for not walking in a straight line. I wasnt interferring with anyone else, it was the last session- my hands were red raw from the leash, my 9 month old had scabbing on her neck and I didnt want to pull too hard on the check and cause her pain- not to mention that I was suffering from a wisdom tooth which was causing me that much pain I had no idea which way even I was walking!!! we had 3 different instructors and this was the only one who commented!

Sure I'd love my dog to be obediet- but am starting to wonder wether a club wholly and solely focussed on competition obedience is the way to go some time.....

[Kavik]

TNT - I can't walk in a straight line either - even when not in pain I occasionally get pulled up on it and I know it is something I have to work on - especially as I want to compete.

[dogdude]

Hi TNT

I would say that if your hands are red raw after class, and the dog has scabbing on its neck from the use of a check chain,............. then something is most definately not working in your training method.

Obedience clubs do not focus on trialling, their bread and butter membership lies with pet owners.

There could be any number of reasons that you are in the position that you are in now, perhaps wrong method for your dog, bad instruction or handler error, etc etc.

[Erny]

Who wants to struggle with their dog every week and be told to do more work at home? At least they were coming to class and doing something. They just stay in beginners if they can't do the exercises.

But then "beginners" banks up because people aren't moving through. Then the class size gets too large and the class attendees complain.

Apart from which, class instruction is exactly that - where the instructor can show and explain; where you can have a practice so that the instructor can see you have the gist of what you need to do; where the instructor can tell and show you where or what you are doing wrong; and so that you can take that tuition home and practice it through the week with your new (or refreshed) knowledge in your head.

As an instructor and on behalf of the dogs, I find it disheartening if people only practice training exercises when they are at class. Because this means that what goes on in between times is an inconsistency and that's not fair on the dog .... certainly confusing.

About dog's doing well only outside of training classes: One of our better instructors used to say, "That just means they need MORE training!" .. i.e. they need to be able to do it with distractions.

And this is correct. It is also about the handler needing more practice at training. Co-ordination in lead handling; body language/position; timing etc. Much easier for the handler to practice that until they don't have to think about it too much so that when they do come to class and work under distraction, they will find handling the training far easier.

Rhapsodical :

It's no fun if you're being reprimanded all the time.

You're right. But I'm going to make a very loose generalisation here - by no means am I directing this to you in particular, Rhaps. It is no fun for the instructor to reprimand all the time either. I love nothing more than when I see people who have put in the work - which usually shows with the improvement in the dog. Sometimes I feel like that shampoo add on TV ..... "yes .... Yes! .... YES!!!!!" (if you get my drift) whilst I'm dancing around in the middle of the class. THIS is what gives me a buzz. This is what inspires me to teach people. People who make the effort. And generally speaking, you can tell when that effort is being or has been made ........................ or if it's not.

People might not enjoy being reprimanded "all the time" but IF this occurs, it does give pause to wonder if they've been making the effort to give the instructor opportunity for otherwise. Don't get me wrong - I agree that a little bit of encouragement goes a long way. But if a person is being "reprimanded all the time" I gotta wonder what that person's doing to receive it in the first place. I make a point of pointing out a person/s doing a great job, to the whole class. Not only because I think that person deserves the public praise, but to hopefully inspire others to try.

Note: Don't know if "reprimand" is being used as an alternative word to "criticism", but that is the way I am interpreting it for the purpose of the quotes referred to.

Rhapsodical :

I think it's also important for instructors to remember that some people use training as a means of social interaction and progression is not so important for them.

As an instructor it is not for me to presume that people are there simply for the social aspect. If they are in the class it is only right that I assume they want to learn. If they want to use classes for social interaction for their dogs only, then they should alert the instructor to that so that class instruction can be dedicated to those who are seeking it and not spend that time on people who don't want nor appreciate it.

And sorry Rhaps ..... I selected two quotes both of which are yours. Completely coincidental and certainly not designed to be pointed.

Edited August 7, 2007 by Erny

[Guest rhapsodical78]

Rhapsodical :

It's no fun if you're being reprimanded all the time.

You're right. But I'm going to make a very loose generalisation here - by no means am I directing this to you in particular, Rhaps. It is no fun for the instructor to reprimand all the time either. I love nothing more than when I see people who have put in the work - which usually shows with the improvement in the dog. Sometimes I feel like that shampoo add on TV ..... "yes .... Yes! .... YES!!!!!" (if you get my drift) whilst I'm dancing around in the middle of the class. THIS is what gives me a buzz. This is what inspires me to teach people. People who make the effort. And generally speaking, you can tell when that effort is being or has been made ........................ or if it's not.

People might not enjoy being reprimanded "all the time" but IF this occurs, it does give pause to wonder if they've been making the effort to give the instructor opportunity for the opposite. Don't get me wrong - I agree that a little bit of encouragement goes a long way. But if a person is being "reprimanded all the time" I gotta wonder what that person's doing to receive it in the first place. I make a point of pointing out a person/s doing a great job, to the whole class. Not only because I think that person deserves the public praise, but to hopefully inspire others to try.

Note: Don't know if "reprimand" is being used as an alternative word to "criticism", but that is the way I am interpreting it for the purpose of the quotes referred to.

Rhapsodical :

I think it's also important for instructors to remember that some people use training as a means of social interaction and progression is not so important for them.

As an instructor it is not for me to presume that people are there simply for the social aspect. If they are in the class it is only right that I assume they want to learn. If they want to use classes for social interaction for their dogs only, then they should alert the instructor to that so that class instruction can be dedicated to those who are seeking it and not spend that time on people who don't want nor appreciate it.

And sorry Rhaps ..... I selected two quotes both of which are yours. Completely coincidental and certainly not designed to be pointed.

I can totally see what you're saying and my comments were made both from the perspective of a handler and an instructor; I can empathise with both sides.

I think the think is that 'criticism' is one thing and 'reprimands' are another and it's important for instructors to understand the difference. Criticism can be constructive and delivered in a productive way but sometimes instructors, in their frustration, err into school marm 'telling off' territory and do it too often. I also think that criticism should be countered with praise. There needs to be some kind of a balance for the handler (even if they do deserve a scolding!) for them to continue to see class as a positive thing.

I think it also has to be considered that some dogs are a lot more difficult to train than others and even a dedicated handler may find themselves behind the eight ball, so constant reprimands only serve to compound the low morale.

With regards to people who are just in it for social reasons, I think in an ideal world everyone would spill their intentions on sign-up, but I'm not sure it's realistic to expect handlers to admit they're not really into training and much prefer the social atmosphere that the club provides. I know a club isn't designed solely to be a social venue but I do think that it's one of the important functions that a club provides, and if the social-seeker learns a thing or two about dog handling in the process then all the better.

Often you can pick those who are just out to have a little fun, and those who take training a little more seriously, and the distinction can save instructors a lot of time. If I've told someone to do something a few times and they're clearly just not interested in perfecting their technique, I generally let it go.

I guess, though, it wouldn't hurt to ask members which of them are interested in trialling at competition level.

Edited August 7, 2007 by rhapsodical78

[dogdude]

Hi Raps

Asking newbys about trialling just gets you confused looks most of the time, and even the advanced class members are usually hard to convince having a go. I would say that maybe 1-3% of club members have a go at trialling each year, maybe less.

I do agree though that the club as a whole remembers that it is "a club", with people there just for the social side of it. As an instructor though, it can get frustrating wasting your (and other keen members time) by having them in your class.

As someone has already mentioned, the instructors reward is seeing a member progress and later seeing "their methods" instilled in "the beleivers". At the end of the day, they do have other things they can be doing that reward themselves.

There is also competition among instructors to an extent. It is always nice to see your class advancing, and glowing approval from your students. That is what I beleive is the reason most volunteer instructors give up their time. They too need reward. If they don't get it, they can get a little cranky just like the best of us.

[Erny]

I think the think is that 'criticism' is one thing and 'reprimands' are another and it's important for instructors to understand the difference. Criticism can be constructive and delivered in a productive way but sometimes instructors, in their frustration, err into school marm 'telling off' territory and do it too often. I also think that criticism should be countered with praise. There needs to be some kind of a balance for the handler (even if they do deserve a scolding!) for them to continue to see class as a positive thing.

In a general sense, I agree here (now that use of "reprimand" and "criticism" has been clarified). I must admit, I'll "push" people to attain the improvement I know is possible but isn't being striven for, but will also try to tell them "good!" when I see some effort being made.

I think it also has to be considered that some dogs are a lot more difficult to train than others and even a dedicated handler may find themselves behind the eight ball, so constant reprimands only serve to compound the low morale.

Also agree. I try to find a moment to help them on an individual basis and usually indicate that I'll be over to help them once the rest of the class are practicing on an exercise. Either that, or having another instructor go over to assist them on that immediate problem.

With regards to people who are just in it for social reasons, I think in an ideal world everyone would spill their intentions on sign-up, but I'm not sure it's realistic to expect handlers to admit they're not really into training and much prefer the social atmosphere that the club provides.

I still don't consider it reasonable to criticise a Club or its instructors for taking off their rose coloured glasses and actually training these people who might only want to socialise. After all, the Club is for dog training - that's what it is about. And if these same 'socialites' have dogs who are going well enough, then they wouldn't be receiving the criticism that's being suggested they do. Sorry, but I don't get this point. I think it is unfair to expect instructors to 'guess' at why they might be there (other than might reasonably be assumed - ie for training).

If I've told someone to do something a few times and they're clearly just not interested in perfecting their technique, I generally let it go.

And yet I've known of some of these people who clearly show disinterest, but then have become disgruntled because they think they are doing better than they are (eg. Recall .... by dragging their dog in via the lead) and should be passed up. If I adopted the assumption they are just there to socialise, they would receive no on-going attention for whatever period and their argument would then be that we are not training them.

I guess, though, it wouldn't hurt to ask members which of them are interested in trialling at competition level.

Assuming that these members have joined a Club who trains with trialling as an objective it would give an idea to the instructor as to what the objectives of their group are.

[Guest rhapsodical78]

Hi Raps

Asking newbys about trialling just gets you confused looks most of the time, and even the advanced class members are usually hard to convince having a go. I would say that maybe 1-3% of club members have a go at trialling each year, maybe less.

I do agree though that the club as a whole remembers that it is "a club", with people there just for the social side of it. As an instructor though, it can get frustrating wasting your (and other keen members time) by having them in your class.

As someone has already mentioned, the instructors reward is seeing a member progress and later seeing "their methods" instilled in "the beleivers". At the end of the day, they do have other things they can be doing that reward themselves.

There is also competition among instructors to an extent. It is always nice to see your class advancing, and glowing approval from your students. That is what I beleive is the reason most volunteer instructors give up their time. They too need reward. If they don't get it, they can get a little cranky just like the best of us.

We tend to mix the classes up a little at our club, so I guess there isn't the same level of competitiveness.

I can understand instructors wanting to be reinforced for their efforts, it would be pretty frustrating if you didn't see any results. Luckily though, I tend to believe there are probably many more people who do want to succeed than those who don't really care.

I just think that club retention rates, or lack thereof, might have something to do with morale and in order to boost the morale criticism needs to be delivered carefully and countered with positive reinforcement.

You're probably right with regards to trialling, but I suppose an explanation of what trialling is might not go astray. There are a few, like myself, who know what they want from obedience and would be happy to explain their abmitions.