Heeling Idea

[JulesP]

So it was aimed at me. I said Western Curb and I stand by what I said. And I didn't say anything about a snaffle being gentle.

[poodlefan]

It wasn't aimed at anyone in particular. After years of hearing English style riders comment on how harsh western curbs were while sitting on horses wearing snaffle bits and dropped nosebands to prevent them opening their mouths to stop the bit digging into their upper palates, I got very tired of such comments. It never seemed to dawn on them that double bridled horses had curbs in their mouths.

A port mouth bit used properly is NOT harsh. A snaffle bit used properly is not harsh although I prefer French snaffles that have no nutcracker action. Any bit can be abused as can any training aid.

It's the riders hands that dictate the horse's comfort and not just the bit.

Edited August 8, 2007 by poodlefan

[Arya]

I just want everybody to know that I am taking in everything that is said here and that I'm not ignoring on discounting anything...

Ok Pax, so maybe its a silly line of thought after all

Rom - it was a line of thought. An exploration of idea. Never silly. This is how 'new' ideas are born.

.....so I hope that I don't annoy any one by following the thought through a little more

But think about how people might teach their dogs in the sport of "Weight Pulling". I've never done this myself, so I'm no expert there, but I think I've read that they start out with the dog pulling a light weight and then move up to heavier weights as the dog becomes more accustomed to it. I doubt they'd do it this way if it proved that pulling heavy weights would result in the dog becoming more sensitive to the lead/rope than the other way around. Sure, they'd have their dog in harnesses and would reward and encourage the dog for pulling. But that aside, I think it would carry the same principal.

But since you're actually starting with a light weight and moving to a heavier weight, wouldn't you be desensitising instead of sensitising? I'll admit that I don't fully understand sensitisation yet and how you go about achieving it for those applications where you need to sensitise a dog to a stimuli. Its probably something that I've done in training at some point....but I don't know the science behind it. So I could be way off mark here.

I see the principle behind what you say. I don't know how it would work with a dog though. What happens when you remove the lead? I think it's an interesting idea. I prefer to teach heeling with NO lead. Lure the pup into the correct position and instantly reward. My theory behind this is that it creates an association right in the beginning that the heeling position is the FUN place to be. So forever more the dog will think of that position as cool. So walk around, when the dog hits the good spot, release the dog and reward. Then do again and again, taking more steps in correct position. I must say this is not how I taught my own dog but I refined her heeling in this manner from average to really good in a short time (except in the trial ring where her brains just fly out her ears and she forgets her own name LOL). BUT, I recently helped some folk to teach their GSD pup using this method and was shocked at how great it worked. Then hookon the lead and away you go ;) What do others do?

Arya, I started teaching my girl the heel as a pup in a similar fashion to what you've outlined. But then we had a training accident and unfortunately it was during her critical period. I was luring her into position and rewarding and she got really excited when she finally understood what I was asking her. I leant down to reward, she anticipated the treat and leapt up to get it....in a one in a million shot, she hooked one of her puppy canines into the pad of my finger...I stood up and had 16 kg of pup hanging off my finger by one tooth. In that instant, with the shock I flicked my hand to get her off...I did it without even thinking....I hurt her and scared the hell out of her....it broke my heart. Also made a mess of my finger! We had issues with her heeling wide after that and luring alone wasn't enough to bring her back in. So I went to a lead to help encourage her back in.

Oh, ROM what a terrible freak accident! So sorry that happened and during the critical period too I see why you use the lead. Watch that the lead doesn't become a kind of 'safety zone' for the dog though. A stimuli that when it goes on that is the heeling position and nowhere else but when off, the dog moves away. Maybe someone else has written this, haven't read all the following posts. What about kind of reprogramming her by playing with her gently with your hands a lot outside of formal heeling and making your hands the focus of play (Iknow some people don't like this as we discourage dogs mouthing hands etc but hey, I think when done correctly this works without causing problems)... hands loaded up with yummy treats. Then asking for a tiny heel in the middle of playing. Then gentle gentle hands a lot of stroking etc (which I'm sure you do anyway). You may be able to get past it that way, even though critical period issue you may be able to reprogramme the dog. Wow, that's a problem to have to work on!!!

[Rom]

Thanks for your concern, Arya

Its almost all ancient history now. The only after effects we have of that incident now are that if I'm standing up, she always ducks her head away from me if I go to pat her. If I'm sitting down its no problem. Even though her heeling position has improved out of sight, if she is sitting at my side and I have my hand by my side, she sometimes leans out away from me a little, but even this has been on the improve. I know how I'm going to work on this now....thanks K9 LOL.

I think TOT helped build her confidence because I was releasing her to go away from me to get the reward.

Also, K9, now that I think about it, I was doing a diluted form of what you taught me for loose lead walking....just didn't make the connection until now...duh! By diluted, I mean that when she is in drive, she is really trying hard to comply because she really wants the release and I find that I don't have to do much more than jiggle the lead to get her to adjust position.

[Steve K9Pro]

Thanks for your concern, Arya

Its almost all ancient history now. The only after effects we have of that incident now are that if I'm standing up, she always ducks her head away from me if I go to pat her. If I'm sitting down its no problem. Even though her heeling position has improved out of sight, if she is sitting at my side and I have my hand by my side, she sometimes leans out away from me a little, but even this has been on the improve. I know how I'm going to work on this now....thanks K9 LOL.

I think TOT helped build her confidence because I was releasing her to go away from me to get the reward.

Also, K9, now that I think about it, I was doing a diluted form of what you taught me for loose lead walking....just didn't make the connection until now...duh! By diluted, I mean that when she is in drive, she is really trying hard to comply because she really wants the release and I find that I don't have to do much more than jiggle the lead to get her to adjust position.

K9: if you think about it, the picture of you standing up with hand outstretched are the ingredients she needs to make a trigger, that trigger is triggering avoidance...

Your job is to reasign the value of the trigger.

Use that hand signal & condition her to believe that it will end in something she loves.... not something she doesnt..

[Lablover]

Changing our behaviour, instead of blaming our dogs. Good one!!!!

Another worth framing!!!!

[Tonymc]

jules,the Horses your been exposed to must have been different indeed.People use a bit of Feed to catch many Horses. Tony

[JulesP]

I've never needed feed to catch my horses. if you do your training has gone wrong somewhere. Haven't seen too many horses trained to Grand Prix using just sugar cubes. Even the natural horsemanship trainers use a system of this will profit you, this will not.