Heeling Idea

[Rom]

An acquaintance of mine trains horses for western eventing and he uses a 7 inch curb bit when training his horses. I never used one on my horses so I don't know that much about them, but I understand that they can be quite a harsh bit in the wrong hands. The way he explains it is that he uses really heavy reins during the training and he teaches the horse to respond to the change in weight in the reins rather than the pressure of the bit in the horses mouth.

So, while the 7 inch curb bit could be seen as some as cruel, he is basically setting his horse up for life to have a soft mouth and avoid any pressure from a bit. But thats a little off topic and getting away from my point

Once the horse is trained he gradually reduces the weight of the reins that he uses then goes back to using an ordinary snaffle bit.

So as well as luring and rewarding a dog when teaching the heel, I wonder if using a heavy lead and also rewarding the correct responses to the change in the weight of the lead as you move with the dog would help some dogs gain understanding of the exercise, or maybe help to tidy up some heeling issues? Then you could reduce the weight of the lead gradually right down to a thin cord if necessary....

Whaddya think?

[dogdude]

Not sure that I fully understand what you mean, but I start training heel with a checkchain, lure and lead, then progress to light lead, lure and, checkchain, to no lead or collar with lure, then no lure/ target bag.

[Tonymc]

Rom,talking about Reinsman there is a sequence which is Snaffle Bit,Snaffle bit and Hackamore,then Hackamore then Hackamore and Spade or Curb.The finished Horse is a Bridle horse ridden straight up in the Spade or Curb.One only goes back to the Snaffle from a Curb if an issue arises.Once the problem is rectified then its back to the Curb.

The Harness Leather Reins are for weight yes but also so in the early stages of Neck reining, so that the Horse feels them on his neck.

Rom we are dealing with two totally different areas here.One being a Dogs Neck and the other the inside of a Horses Mouth.The inside of a Horse"s mouth is more sensitive than that of the outside of a Dogs neck.I do not seeing the two areas as being a workable comparison.

Also your taking an example from an Animal that is a Prey Animal and applying it to an Animal that is a Predator.Both have their own species specific Psychology, which have little common ground.

I feel it would be of little value.I have seen both in the Dog and Horse World where People have noticed a certain Trainer winning consistently and so they start to buy and copy the gear the Trainer is using,mistakenly believing that just having the same gear will see them winning too!!!We all know what a fallacy that is!!!!The quality of training is what counts.

It seems the objective in your post above is to graduate down to a thin Cord or leash.Train the Dog with a thin Cord from the word go and if the training is good then you have a Dog that works on a thin Cord. Tony

[Rom]

Dogdude, I think you're doing something along the lines of what I was talking about.

Thanks Tony, I was hoping a horsey person would come in and clarify for me

[Erny]

I am familiar (even though it is from many years ago) with curb bits of various lengths and the fact that these require a sensitive hand.

I am trying to visualise, however, the effect/affect of rein weight on the action of the bit itself and must admit that I need to contemplate this somewhat more to comprehend how it would correspond to the horse via the bit. Weight resting on the curb would not, to my knowledge, have a bearing in this regard, save that picking up the reins would action the curb slightly faster than light weight reins and this alone might lead one to believing that the horse has responded to the rein when in fact it may still be a response to the curb. In otherwords, the weight of the rein is creating the first degree of action on the curb that a rider's hand would in the event the reins were light in weight.

I can only imagine the rein weight having a bearing on the horse without additional manipulation by the rider, if the horse is well and truley 'above the bit' - in this case the rein would action the curb to a degree, by its weight alone. But I would expect any trainer/rider to understand the import of a horse being 'on the bit' and 'underneath' the rider, so I doubt the horse would be carrying above the bit to such degree.

A weighted rein may also transmit more awareness by the horse of the rein at its neck - and that perhaps the pairing of this as well as the action of the curb would correlate to the pairing of a physical correction and a verbal correction as we do with the dogs.

Not forgetting the rider's legs also play a part - and all the moreso if spurs are utilised.

I do not believe that adding weight to a dog's lead would provide any benefit other than to produce a dog who will put more heart and sole into pulling. In addition to my query over what is REALLY having an effect on the horse (as per above) the fact that the weight bearing from a dog's lead is onto muscle (neck) rather than onto the very sensitive gums, as per a horse.

Edited August 4, 2007 by Erny

[Rom]

I'm still thinking on this....perhaps I've confused by mentioning a bit. And maybe I've come to the wrong conclusion about what my acquaintance is actually doing with his horses since I'm not that horse savvy. But it was his statement about response to change in the weight that got me thinking along the lines that I am. I've worded the above post a little too broadley too I think. By changes in weight, I wasn't refering to the weight difference between the two different weights of rein if you get what I mean, but more the way the sensation of the weight changes as the rein moves. Sorry if this is getting muddier

To try to clarify what I'm thinking about imagine this.

I've blindfolded you and you have ear plugs. I tie a piece of heavy rope to your wrist. I'm going to give you $1000 if you can follow me, but I'm not going to put any tension on the rope or use it to guide you in any way. I'll reward you for every step you take in the right direction. Do you think that you would be able to learn judge where I'm going by the changes in sensations of the rope as I move?

If so, if I then moved to using a lighter rope but kept up the reward schedule would I be sensitising you to minute changes in the sensation of the rope?

Edited August 5, 2007 by Rom

[PAX]

If so, if I then moved to using a lighter rope but kept up the reward schedule would I be sensitising you to minute changes in the sensation of the rope?

Maybe if it was attached to a piece of metal in my mouth.

[Rom]

Ok Pax, so maybe its a silly line of thought after all

[Erny]

Ok Pax, so maybe its a silly line of thought after all

Rom - it was a line of thought. An exploration of idea. Never silly. This is how 'new' ideas are born.

But think about how people might teach their dogs in the sport of "Weight Pulling". I've never done this myself, so I'm no expert there, but I think I've read that they start out with the dog pulling a light weight and then move up to heavier weights as the dog becomes more accustomed to it. I doubt they'd do it this way if it proved that pulling heavy weights would result in the dog becoming more sensitive to the lead/rope than the other way around. Sure, they'd have their dog in harnesses and would reward and encourage the dog for pulling. But that aside, I think it would carry the same principal.

[MonElite]

My way of thinking with a heavy lead than a light lead would be that no I wouldnt do it.

The dog knows the weight of the heavy lead and knows its on lead , if you remove the weight and replace it with something very light it will feel that its off lead.

I would do the other way around - teach the dog off lead from the start than adding a light lead for trials (only needed for CCD anyway)

I use a strong leather lead for loose lead walking, its for my comfort and dogs security more than the dogs.

[Arya]

I see the principle behind what you say. I don't know how it would work with a dog though. What happens when you remove the lead? I think it's an interesting idea. I prefer to teach heeling with NO lead. Lure the pup into the correct position and instantly reward. My theory behind this is that it creates an association right in the beginning that the heeling position is the FUN place to be. So forever more the dog will think of that position as cool. So walk around, when the dog hits the good spot, release the dog and reward. Then do again and again, taking more steps in correct position. I must say this is not how I taught my own dog but I refined her heeling in this manner from average to really good in a short time (except in the trial ring where her brains just fly out her ears and she forgets her own name LOL). BUT, I recently helped some folk to teach their GSD pup using this method and was shocked at how great it worked. Then hookon the lead and away you go ;) What do others do?

[Rom]

I just want everybody to know that I am taking in everything that is said here and that I'm not ignoring on discounting anything...

Ok Pax, so maybe its a silly line of thought after all :p

Rom - it was a line of thought. An exploration of idea. Never silly. This is how 'new' ideas are born.

.....so I hope that I don't annoy any one by following the thought through a little more

But think about how people might teach their dogs in the sport of "Weight Pulling". I've never done this myself, so I'm no expert there, but I think I've read that they start out with the dog pulling a light weight and then move up to heavier weights as the dog becomes more accustomed to it. I doubt they'd do it this way if it proved that pulling heavy weights would result in the dog becoming more sensitive to the lead/rope than the other way around. Sure, they'd have their dog in harnesses and would reward and encourage the dog for pulling. But that aside, I think it would carry the same principal.

But since you're actually starting with a light weight and moving to a heavier weight, wouldn't you be desensitising instead of sensitising? I'll admit that I don't fully understand sensitisation yet and how you go about achieving it for those applications where you need to sensitise a dog to a stimuli. Its probably something that I've done in training at some point....but I don't know the science behind it. So I could be way off mark here.

I see the principle behind what you say. I don't know how it would work with a dog though. What happens when you remove the lead? I think it's an interesting idea. I prefer to teach heeling with NO lead. Lure the pup into the correct position and instantly reward. My theory behind this is that it creates an association right in the beginning that the heeling position is the FUN place to be. So forever more the dog will think of that position as cool. So walk around, when the dog hits the good spot, release the dog and reward. Then do again and again, taking more steps in correct position. I must say this is not how I taught my own dog but I refined her heeling in this manner from average to really good in a short time (except in the trial ring where her brains just fly out her ears and she forgets her own name LOL). BUT, I recently helped some folk to teach their GSD pup using this method and was shocked at how great it worked. Then hookon the lead and away you go What do others do?

Arya, I started teaching my girl the heel as a pup in a similar fashion to what you've outlined. But then we had a training accident and unfortunately it was during her critical period. I was luring her into position and rewarding and she got really excited when she finally understood what I was asking her. I leant down to reward, she anticipated the treat and leapt up to get it....in a one in a million shot, she hooked one of her puppy canines into the pad of my finger...I stood up and had 16 kg of pup hanging off my finger by one tooth. In that instant, with the shock I flicked my hand to get her off...I did it without even thinking....I hurt her and scared the hell out of her....it broke my heart. Also made a mess of my finger! We had issues with her heeling wide after that and luring alone wasn't enough to bring her back in. So I went to a lead to help encourage her back in.

[Erny]

I just want everybody to know that I am taking in everything that is said here and that I'm not ignoring on discounting anything...

:p Ok Pax, so maybe its a silly line of thought after all

Rom - it was a line of thought. An exploration of idea. Never silly. This is how 'new' ideas are born.

.....so I hope that I don't annoy any one by following the thought through a little more

Give an inch and one will take a mile .................... No - that's ok.

But since you're actually starting with a light weight and moving to a heavier weight, wouldn't you be desensitising instead of sensitising?

But a heavier lead is hardly going to sensitise the dog. If anything it will simply bring him to be "lead wise" even more so than usual. And he would only have become accustomed to having something weight bearing on his collar. With the 'horse' analogy, the difference is that the weight of the rein might have a bearing on the bit which is in the horse's mouth. The 'curb' is a chain which runs under the horses lower jaw. When the reins weigh on the bit via the 7" arms/levers (I've forgotten what that part is called) there is A LOT of leverage. The smallest movement on the 'arms' causes quite a lot of movement (and very potentially painful) pressure on the horse's lower jaw from underneath (via the curb chain) and conversely but simultaneously, from above the lower jaw (via the bit in its mouth). This is nothing like simply having a heavy lead on a dog's collar.

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: Hey Rom, what your describing is escape training, the horse learns to escape the constant heavy leash with the desired behaviour, yes it can be used on dogs but not with a heavy leash.

Specially in heeling.

Heeling should mean the dog should find your leg & stick with it. It cant be about the leash or when you remove the leash the dog will not heel.

Think hard & see if you remember how I use escape training.....

[Rom]

.....Thinking cap on......-R at low levels until you get the position and any time it strays from position with handler totally emotionless until +R is needed for correct position?

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: Escape training means reducing the default level of comfort & restoring comfort when the desired behaviour is displayed...

[JulesP]

That is pretty much the basis of most horse training. Since horses aren't really that motivated about food etc rewards.

Not sure how you would translate the bit thing to dog training. The western curb bit is a pretty full on training device. Maybe using a prong collar and then going to a flat collar would be similar.

[poodlefan]

I would equate this analogy to going from using exaggerated, longer cues to smaller, neater ones.

The heavy rein increases the cue from rider to horse without necessarily adding greater pressure to the bit. Western riding is done predominately on a loose rein - it's the picking up, and the shifting of the rein, rather than constant contact that cues the horse to changes of pace and direction (in combination with shifts in body weight and leg position)

The difference with heeling is that the aim of the exercise is to have NO lead. Starting with a heavy lead won't help with that IMHO.

Anyone who thinks use of a curb is harsh doesn't know how to use one.. the analogy with prong collars is a valid one.

You can break a horses jaw with a snaffle. A curb doesn't have the nutcracker action required to do that.

As with dogs, it's not the tool that is harsh, but how the trainer uses it. I'd say side reins, draw reins and lunge reins have made more lasting damage to horses than any other aid.. and most people consider them fairly benign.

[Erny]

Anyone who thinks use of a curb is harsh doesn't know how to use one.. the analogy with prong collars is a valid one.

You can break a horses jaw with a snaffle. A curb doesn't have the nutcracker action required to do that.

Don't know if this was aimed at me - but it's not the impression I was trying to give - my point of focus being mainly to try to make some clarifying differences when it comes to a bit in a horse's mouth and a lead on a dog. All bits deserve a sensitive hand, although the curb can require a bit more sensitivity, especially with the long side bars (dang it .... what are they called?). The longer they are, the more leverage and less effort to apply the same to maximum pressure. These bits are designed for exactly as you say, PF .... loose rein work. As opposed to the snaffle (I preferred the French Snaffle), which can be worked quite comfortably for the horse with contact (ie horse "on" the bit).

As with dogs, it's not the tool that is harsh, but how the trainer uses it.

Agree - any training equipment not understood and/or used properly has the potential to damage.

[poodlefan]

Erny:

Don't know if this was aimed at me - but it's not the impression I was trying to give

Nope, not at all Erny!